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Pope Francis’ latest grenade – UPDATED October 1, 2013

Posted by Tantumblogo in abdication of duty, Basics, catachesis, disaster, Ecumenism, episcopate, error, foolishness, General Catholic, Papa, sadness, scandals, secularism, self-serving, Society, the return.
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Wow…….as one of the commenters said, this Pope, he is moving fast.  He wants to apparently do quite a bit in whatever time he has.

Pope Francis has given yet another interview, this time with Italian editor and militant atheist Eugenio Scalfari.  This is an interview the Pope sought out and initiated.  It’s another rather long, wordy interview. Rorate has the complete text in English.  We hadn’t even gotten over the previous interview, before this one drops on us.  I will give some of the more………exciting………excerpts. I shall endeavor to keep my comments to a minimum, but I may fail:

Pope Francis told me: “The most  serious of the evils that afflict the world these days are youth unemployment and the loneliness of the old. The old need care and companionship; the young need work and hope but have neither one nor the other, and the problem is they don’t even look for them any more. They have been crushed by the present. You tell me: can you live crashed under the weight of the present? Without a memory of the past and without the desire to look ahead to the future by building something, a future, a family? Can you go on like this? This, to me, is the most urgent problem that the Church is facing” [So, not abortion. Not plummeting birth rates and attendant economic collapse. Not worldwide apostasly. Youth unemployment and the loneliness of the old.  Is he serious?  Or is Pope Francis just incredibly provincial?]

[The interviewer says……….]My friends think it is you want to convert me.

He smiles again and replies: “Proselytism is solemn nonsense, it makes no sense. We need to get to know each other, listen to each other and improve our knowledge of the world around us. Sometimes after a meeting I want to arrange another one because new ideas are born and I discover new needs. This is important: to get to know people, listen, expand the circle of ideas. The world is crisscrossed by roads that come closer together and move apart, but the important thing is that they lead towards the Good.”
 
Your Holiness, is there is a single vision of the Good? And who decides what it is?

 

“Each of us has a vision of good and of evil. We have to encourage people to move towards what they think is Good.” [This is the second time the Pope has said this. He seems almost desperate to get the wordly secularist/atheist types to………what?  Like him?  It’s certainly not so they convert.]
 

 

Your Holiness you wrote that in your letter to me.  The conscience is autonomous, you said, and everyone must obey his conscience. I think that’s one of the most courageous steps taken by a Pope.

 

“And I repeat it here. Everyone has his own idea of good and evil and must choose to follow the good and fight evil as he conceives them. That would be enough to make the world a better place.”  [Ummm, can we also have a little concern over the eternal destination of souls?  It is not enough to “make the world a better place,” which will vary according to the apparently 7+billion dogmatic definitions of “good” the Pope apparently feels exist out there in each human being.  Is this not just private judgment run absolutely amok?  Is this not complete moral relativism?  Is this not a bitter rebuke of the former, but still living, pontiff?  This statement here is in some ways worse than the statement regarding proselytism at the top, because the Pope has now said almost the exact same thing 3 or 4 times. These statements could have come from the mouth of a Charles Curran or Richard McBrien]
 
Jesus in his preaching said that agape, love for others, is the only way to love God. Correct me if I’m wrong.
 

 

“You’re not wrong. The Son of God became incarnate in the souls of men to instill the feeling of brotherhood……..”  [I thought it was more about redeeming all mankind of our sins, and making salvation at least a possibility for us]
 
The leprosy of the papacy, those were his exact words. But what is the court? Perhaps he is alluding to the curia?
 

 

“No, there are sometimes courtiers in the curia, but the curia as a whole is another thing. It is what in an army is called the quartermaster’s office, it manages the services that serve the Holy See. But it has one defect: it is Vatican-centric. It sees and looks after the interests of the Vatican, which are still, for the most part, temporal interests. This Vatican-centric view neglects the world around us. I do not share this view and I’ll do everything I can to change it. The Church is or should go back to being a community of God’s people………”
 
Throughout the interview, Pope Francis stresses, as he has done on numerous previous occasions, that his vision of the Church is one that sees our duty to serve our fellow man as far, far more pressing and predominant than our need to serve God.  These duties certainly do not have to be competitive, they should be profoundly complementary, but we see again a sort of “either-or” approach in the post-conciliar Church being played out.
 
Those are certainly the comments that will get the most attention, I think. I may have missed a few highly charged ones.
 
So, the above is certainly in keeping with much that we’ve heard from Pope Francis throughout his pontificate.  In closing, Mundabor makes an interesting comparison:
 

Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you.

Our Lord, 33 AD.

“Proselytism is solemn nonsense, it makes no sense. We need to get to know each other, listen to each other and improve our knowledge of the world around us. Sometimes after a meeting I want to arrange another one because new ideas are born and I discover new needs. This is important: to get to know people, listen, expand the circle of ideas. The world is crisscrossed by roads that come closer together and move apart, but the important thing is that they lead towards the Good.”

Pope Francis, 2013 AD.

UPDATE: I missed the following excerpt. “Make a mess,” he said:

“We must be a leaven of life and of love,” Francis said, “and the leaven is infinitely smaller than the mass of fruit, of flowers and trees that grow thanks to it…. [O]ur objective isn’t proselytism but listening to [people’s] needs, desires, disappointments, desperations and hopes. We must restore hope to the young, aid the old, open ourselves to the future, spread love. [We must be] the poor among the poor. We must include the excluded and preach peace. Vatican II, inspired by Pope John and Paul VI, decided to look to the future with a modern spirit and to open [the church] to modern culture. The Council fathers knew that
opening to modern culture meant religious ecumenism and dialogue with non believers. After then very little was done in that direction. I have the humility and ambition to want to do it.”  [First of all……..I have not known too many humble people who go around reminding others how humble they are all the time. Secondly, claiming “very little” was done regarding implementing novel concepts on ecumenism and dialogue sends cold shivers down my spine.  Good grief, what was not done?  We have had popes kissing Korans, sending greetings to every pagan and muslim and Jewish holiday you can imagine, we have whole conferences and dicasteries and groups of cardinals dedicated to nothing BUT ecumenism and “dialogue,” we have regular meetings in posh resorts to spend more time fruitlessly trying to square the corner on subjects like Anglican ordination of women and Catholic understanding such is impossible, we have spent nearly 50 years beating our breasts crying “mea culpa” for all the “wrongs” and failings of the Church over 2000 years, we had not one, not two, but THREE scandalous, indifferentist confabs in Assisi with every pagan religion under the sun present……..and little has been done?  If that’s the case, what will be left standing when this humble, ambitious Pope gets done dialoguing?]

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Comments

1. Lorra - October 1, 2013

“Is this not a bitter rebuke of the former, but still living, pontiff? ”

So far in the past six months (seems like six years), much of what he has done and said has been a bitter rebuke not only on Benedict XVI, but the entire history of our Church.

I’ve often gotten the impression that we could do nothing right before, but now, Francis will remedy all of that.

2. Lorra - October 1, 2013

“The most serious of the evils that afflict the world these days are youth unemployment and the loneliness of the old. ”
This statement astounds me! Do we live in the same world?

Sorry, Tantamergo. I don’t mean to monopolize the blog entry, but I really am at the end of my rope and at a loss as to what to do.

RC - October 1, 2013

Lorna,
I am interested in what you think Francis is trying to accomplish and why you think he’s in such a hurry to do it. I know it’s not good to speculate, but I just want to know what your views of the situation are.

RC - October 1, 2013

I mean Lorra :)

Lorra - October 1, 2013

I think he is going to dismantle whatever is left standing of pre-Vatican II Catholicism. The Church, as a whole, is starting to remind me of nothing more than a political organization whose only interest is building utopia in this world. I guess that is what happens when universal salvation kicks in. I mean, what else is left for the church to do?

Francis’ “agenda” sounds masonic to me. God became man (in everyone’s hearts no less!!!) to instill the “feeling” of brotherhood???? So. Our Lord became man and suffered the most sacred Passion and Death for the brotherhood of man? It is almost blasphemous.

As to why he is in such a hurry, I do not know. There must be a time-frame. That, or he has a lot to do and can’t waste any time.

RC - October 1, 2013

So if that happens. Does that mean the Church has died?
I’m still trying to wrap my head over everything, it’s a lot to take in.
For instance, if the Catholic Church is the real Church then how can it die? Did I waste my time becoming Catholic, as a pretty recent convert, I have to admit that my faith is still somewhat shakey. But if the Church does cease being the Church then where do I have to go?
Sorry for the rant

Lorra - October 1, 2013

RC, don’t forget, the Church must live through Her own Passion. Our Lord, on His way to Calvary, was unrecognizable, wasn’t He? Not many faithful souls stood by Him at the foot of the cross. Most of them probably thought: “How can this be the Son of God, to allow Himself to be scourged beyond recognition and then nailed to a cross to die? Surely if He is who He claims to be, this wouldn’t be happening!”

You lose nothing by hanging on tight. But, if you jump ship, you risk losing much.

God bless you, RC. I will keep you in my prayers, and ask you to pray for me as well.

tantamergo - October 1, 2013

RC –

Don’t let that happen. The Church is bigger than the Pope. Not even a Pope can revoke established Dogma. Pope Francis can cause huge scandal and lead many souls astray (I’m not saying he will, just that he could), but he cannot change Dogma. He can change disciplines in the Church and he can change how the Church operates, administratively, but he will not change what the Church believes, because he cannot. A Pope, even as Vicar of Christ, is just a man, and there have been some really, really bad popes. So far, everything he has said is just prudential, almost unimportant statements in interviews. He’s just giving his opinion. It may be wrong, it may be scandalous, but it is not doctrinal. Always keep that in mind.

Watch this video, especially the end. The quote from St. Vincent Lerins is key. Cling fast to Tradition. That is our link to the Apostles and Christ Himself.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qNV4Ouch4NU&feature=player_embedded

tantamergo - October 1, 2013

I guess God didn’t want me to post that reply. I had a long and steaming hot one. Oh, well…….

But, I agree, he seems in a great hurry. Compared to Francis, Pope Benedict moved glacially.

It’s all revolution from here on out, for the next few decades, folks. Hang on to what you can, I strongly believe not only Summorum Pontificum is at risk, but Ecclesia Dei. SSPX may get a whooole lot bigger. I’m serious. I’m not over-reacting, I’ve been thinking this for months.

RC - October 1, 2013

Thanks Lorra and Tantam.

Tantam, do you think it is ever, or could ever be possible in the future to go to the SSPX?

tantamergo - October 1, 2013

In a word, yes. But that time is not yet, and may never come. There are a lot of problems with going SSPX, for one, their faculties are not valid for Confession. Their Mass is perfectly valid, and satisfies one’s Sunday obligation.

But if the TLM is taken away, if the indult orders like FSSP are folded up or somehow “forced” to offer the NO, then I don’t know what I’ll do. I will have to pray like mad.

3. TG - October 1, 2013

Paul needs to rebuke Peter again. There’s supposed to be an article about this but I haven’t been able to find it to read it. Michal Voris interviewed the reporter about this.

Christine - October 1, 2013
Christine - October 1, 2013
4. Lorra - October 1, 2013

How can Paul rebuke Peter when they all think alike?

The reality of what is happening is too horrifying. No wonder why people stick their heads in the sand and pretend all is well. I don’t blame them.

5. Baseballmom - October 1, 2013

I will have to stop reading his interviews. His words have become a near occasion of sin for me. I will fast and pray for him, but not read another thing he says.

6. Woody - October 1, 2013

On a positive note, thanks to Pope Francis, I am really thinking of heading to Irving and joining a TLM parish. It seemed a long way away in the past but now it’s looking closer and closer!

7. Catholic4Life - October 1, 2013

Reblogged this on Catholic4Life and commented:
Unbelievable! The Vicar of Christ at his Worst!

8. Lorra - October 1, 2013

What if you had no other option other than to stay at your local parish? What would you do?

LaGallina - October 1, 2013

I have no other option but to stay at my NO parish. Not only that, but to raise my kids in it. This whole thing is devastating me right now. I don’t even mention the pope’s name in front of my kids because I’m afraid of saying uncharitable things and confusing them.

I pray and fast a lot. I beg God for direction. And I get my husband to drive us to a Traditional Mass once a month an hour and a half away. But I feel stressed out and on the verge of tears most of the time because of the pope. I cling to my traditional books and prayers and this blog. I know I will never let go of the faith and switch to Orthodox or something. But I would go SSPX if I could.

tantamergo - October 1, 2013

That’s ok, do the best you can. My situation is different from others, we are especially lucky to have some other options. But don’t stop going to Mass! We have to satisfy the precepts of the Church and cannot sin just because we don’t like what’s going on. Your local Mass should be perfectly valid, so still go.

It would be a shock to me, after 3+ years going to the TLM, to lose it now. But if I had never known it, it would be different. Hopefully, that makes sense. Do the best you can and work for whatever improvements can be made at your local level. Attend the best Mass you can. Go to Confession. Don’t let these things outside your control drive you away. Even if, God forbid, the TLM were “abrogated” tomorrow, which is really impossible, but even if everyone in the Church went along with it, I would still probably not go SSPX. But even thinking it could be a consideration is a pretty big change, for me.

You’re not in Corpus, right? You’re in the Valley? But you know there are TLMs in Corpus?

Lorra - October 1, 2013

God bless you, LaGallina! I understand only too well what you are going through.

tantamergo - October 1, 2013

I would probably still stay.

LaGallina - October 2, 2013

Thanks Lorra and tangamergo for your encouragement. I won’t stop going to Mass because I need to receive the Eucharist. And because I have to stay solid for my children. My parish did recently start daily Adoration. That is a huge comfort. I just go and cry on Jesus’ shoulder.

I heard a lady say that we are blessed to live in these times, and I think she is right. (Though I would give anything to go to the Mass of my great-grandmothers.) Whatever is going on in the Church right now is clearly the most massive trial She has ever gone through. The spiritual battle that is going on all around us must be fierce. (I wish I could see St. Michael in action.) There must be something really special going on in the supernatural realm.

Lorra, I like what you said about the Church having to go through Her own passion. What does that mean that She “has to” go through it? Is that a prophecy? Those words do help me to feel like I can offer up this suffering to Our Suffering Lord.

I’ve often wondered about the followers of Jesus who were so depressed and demoralized (and even embarrassed) by His crucifixion. That must have been devastating to many people. But we know what happened on the third day.

Tangamergo, Corpus is far, 3 hours or so. I hope some time you will do a post about the SSPX. I would like to understand more about them, and why not them, I don’t know much except that we are supposed to stay away from them. But the 2 or 3 times that I’ve heard Bishop Fellay speak he makes so much sense. And I think, “if it were a matter of sending my kids to their CCD classes where de Chardin is called a hero and the favorite ‘catechetical’ lesson is ‘fair or unfair’ how could I not take them to SSPX?

Anyway it’s a moot point since SSPX isn’t down here either.
Thanks Lorra and tangamergo for your encouragement. I won’t stop going to Mass because I need to receive the Eucharist. And because I have to stay solid for my children. My parish did recently start daily Adoration. That is a huge comfort. I just go and cry on Jesus’ shoulder.

I heard a lady say that we are blessed to live in these times, and I think she is right. (Though I would give anything to go to the Mass of my great-grandmothers.) Whatever is going on in the Church right now is clearly the most massive trial She has ever gone through. The spiritual battle that is going on all around us must be fierce. (I wish I could see St. Michael in action.) There must be something really special going on in the supernatural realm.

Lorra, I like what you said about the Church having to go through Her own passion. What does that mean that She “has to” go through it? Is that a prophecy? Those words do help me to feel like I can offer up this suffering to Our Suffering Lord.

I’ve often wondered about the followers of Jesus who were so depressed and demoralized (and even embarrassed) by His crucifixion. That must have been devastating to many people. But we know what happened on the third day.

Tangamergo, Corpus is far, 3 hours or so. I hope some time you will do a post about the SSPX. I would like to understand more about them, and why not them, I don’t know much except that we are supposed to stay away from them. But the 2 or 3 times that I’ve heard Bishop Fellay speak he makes so much sense. And I think, “if it were a matter of sending my kids to their CCD classes where de Chardin is called a hero and the favorite ‘catechetical’ lesson is ‘fair or unfair’ how could I not take them to SSPX?

Anyway it’s a moot point since SSPX isn’t down here either.

Sorry for the novel…
Sorry for the novel…Thanks Lorra and tangamergo for your encouragement. I won’t stop going to Mass because I need to receive the Eucharist. And because I have to stay solid for my children. My parish did recently start daily Adoration. That is a huge comfort. I just go and cry on Jesus’ shoulder.

I heard a lady say that we are blessed to live in these times, and I think she is right. (Though I would give anything to go to the Mass of my great-grandmothers.) Whatever is going on in the Church right now is clearly the most massive trial She has ever gone through. The spiritual battle that is going on all around us must be fierce. (I wish I could see St. Michael in action.) There must be something really special going on in the supernatural realm.

Lorra, I like what you said about the Church having to go through Her own passion. What does that mean that She “has to” go through it? Is that a prophecy? Those words do help me to feel like I can offer up this suffering to Our Suffering Lord.

I’ve often wondered about the followers of Jesus who were so depressed and demoralized (and even embarrassed) by His crucifixion. That must have been devastating to many people. But we know what happened on the third day.

Tangamergo, Corpus is far, 3 hours or so. I hope some time you will do a post about the SSPX. I would like to understand more about them, and why not them, I don’t know much except that we are supposed to stay away from them. But the 2 or 3 times that I’ve heard Bishop Fellay speak he makes so much sense. And I think, “if it were a matter of sending my kids to their CCD classes where de Chardin is called a hero and the favorite ‘catechetical’ lesson is ‘fair or unfair’ how could I not take them to SSPX?

Anyway it’s a moot point since SSPX isn’t down here.

Sorry for the novel…

9. Michael P. Mc Crory. - October 1, 2013

The Pope is saying you cannot just tell people that they are loved by God when our economic system is so evil leaving the MANY as mere borrowers beholding to the few, the MONEY MAFIA.

As Pius XI put it:
” This power becomes particularly irresistable when exercised by those who, because they hold and control money, are able also to govern credit and determine it’s allotment, for that reason supplying, so to speak, the lifeblood to the entire economic body, and grasping, as it were,in their hands the very soul of production, so that no one dare breath against their will.”

First we show compassion for our brother in need then we can talk of love.

Pope Francis is upsetting people much more important than you Latin mass folk he is after the Money Mafia folk and he knows he may not have long to say what he must say before they silence him like they did Lincoln and Kennedy.
And then how will you feel?

This Pope is so far ahead of you narrow thinkers it has your heads spinning.

Don - October 1, 2013

Is your statement somehow infallible?

tantamergo - October 1, 2013

That’s the Fr. Z explanation. At least, I saw something similar. I noticed Fr. Z’s attempts at “correcting” the translations into English left the text essentially unchanged, despite his protestations to the contrary. He also left completely untouched the statement regarding proselytism.

Look, I don’t like pointing this stuff out, but I feel required, in conscience, to do so. Obviously, many, many Catholics are very troubled by this rhetoric, and that discomfort goes well beyond just issues of translation or exaggerations in the press. I read the entire interview more than once, and the Pope has been very consistent – he is going to greatly change the way in which the Church is administrated, he is going to focus very heavily on worldly concerns (and, it seems to the detriment of eternal concerns), and he is going to engage in a dialogue which will frequently cause scandal. I am going to update the post, cause I missed one truly explosive bit.

Christopher Ekstrom - October 2, 2013

Rubbish!

10. Michael P. Mc Crory. - October 2, 2013

One good man’s explanation for Pope Francis mindset:

” It is absurd to argue men as torture them into belief.”
(Cardinal Newman.)

11. Michael P. Mc Crory. - October 2, 2013

Into believing

that should read

12. Don - October 2, 2013

From Father Z —

When I read in the English version that Pope allegedly said,

“The Son of God became incarnate in the souls of men to instill the feeling of brotherhood”,

I said to myself, “That can’t be right. Swap out brotherhood with something like ‘sisterhood’ and he sounds like an LCWR nun, and he is no fan of theirs or of their ‘female machismo’!” No! Allow me to amend. None of them would have said that. They’ve grown beyond Jesus and words like “son”. But you get my drift. The Second Person of the Trinity did not incarnate in the “souls of men”.

So… What Did The Pope Really Say? My emphasis.

Il Figlio di Dio si è incarnato per infondere nell’anima degli uomini il sentimento della fratellanza….

The Son of God was incarnate in order to instill in soul of men the feeling of brotherhood.

Perhaps better… “awareness… sense” of brotherhood?

I would like to take that “sentimento” in the Italian sense of “awareness”, but since Pope Francis is fundamentally a Spanish speaker, I don’t know what he meant by it here. I suspect we have to hear “sentimento/sentimiento” as “feeling”. Honestly, my Spanish isn’t quite strong enough yet to hear that possible nuance behind the Italian. In Italian I would have said something like, “consapevolezza”… or, now that I think of it, “senso”.

We have to be careful with the reports about what Francis said. We have to check the English version of the interview against the Italian.

I am sure there will be other examples.

13. TerryE - October 2, 2013

From the English translation of the interview: “From my point of view, God is the light that illuminates the darkness, even if it does not dissolve it, and a spark of divine light is within each of us. In the letter I wrote to you, you will remember I said that our species will end but the light of God will not end and at that point it will invade all souls and it will all be in everyone.” Whaaa? Even souls in hell???

14. TerryE - October 2, 2013

Can’t you see them breaking out the love beads and singing “The Age of Aquarius”? Is it “His Holiness”, or is it “His Grooviness”?

15. Christopher Ekstrom - October 2, 2013

An Argentinian Pope behaving…Argentinian. What was/is the intention of the Cardinals? Francis cannot have been a total unknown. Pray that St. Michael intercedes to protect our Church!

16. Lorra - October 2, 2013

I’ve had a chance to sleep on this, and I am here to tell you that I feel worse today than yesterday.

We have the SSPX nearby. Perhaps it is time to go there.

As for the comment: “This Pope is so far ahead of you narrow thinkers it has your heads spinning.” – that is very funny. Obama supporters say the same thing about Obama and those who aren’t too keen on his nonsense.

If Our Lord wanted the intellectual elite to not only lead His Church but to be members of it as well, He wouldn’t have chosen, for the most part, ignorant fishermen. If I recall, it was the most educated of the twelve who betrayed Him and then committed suicide.

What more can I say?

17. Lorra - October 2, 2013

Ah! I see that I am not alone. It does get worse when you sleep on it: http://thesensiblebond.blogspot.com/2013/10/the-loggorhea-flows-into-tiber.html

18. Maria - October 4, 2013

Pope Francis could somewhat redeem himself because of his interview with the atheist Scalfari by having a give and take dialog with a victim of clerical abuse and their family. This would show true compassion and humility on his part. What a caring message this would send to his faithful Catholics. Can you imagine the fallout among his brothers in the Lord if he would do this?


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