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Regarding Latin Mass in the Dallas Diocese July 9, 2013

Posted by Tantumblogo in Admin, Basics, Dallas Diocese, episcopate, General Catholic, Latin Mass, Liturgy, North Deanery, priests, Tradition, Virtue.

A commenter “RS” left a comment asking if souls would like to join her in an effort to bring Latin Mass to the northern part of the Diocese.  RS referenced Irving, which is where the only TLM in the Diocese is located, so I assume RS meant the Traditional Mass when they said “Latin Mass.” I also think RS might be a she.  If you’re reading this, RS, and you’re the lovely lady who always wears white and who I see at the Carmelite Chapel and Mater Dei, let me elucidate you a bit.

There are “Latin Masses” in the northern part of the Diocese. There is Novus Ordo Latin Mass every Sunday in Greenville at St. William, and most Mondays at 7pm at St. Mark in Plano (and sorry I did not get the reminder out yesterday – attendance was sparse, apparently).  I don’t know what you mean by “northern part of the Diocese.”  That could be anywhere from Northwest Hwy to Denison, depending on your definition.

But if you mean TLM, and if you mean this Traditional Latin Mass like they have at Mater Dei to be offered by a diocesan priest, I would say such is unlikely.  Now maybe a Mater Dei priest could offer a TLM somewhere other than the parish now that they have 3 priests, but that would take some negotiating first at MD and then at the Diocese.  It’s a good idea, actually.  But on the diocesan front Bishop Farrell has made pretty clear he does not see a need for the TLM outside MD.  His statement on the matter from 2007 still stands. [Sorry for the bad link!  Summorumpontificum.net must have expired, and it’s being trolled by porn sites.  My apologies.  I had been to summorumpontificum many times, so I didn’t bother to check when I posted the original link. Link now fixed.]

The Novus Ordo Latin Mass is not the same thing as the TLM. RS may know this, but many do not. I get this question regularly.  The Traditional Latin Mass involves the priest always facing the tabernacle, Communion always on the tongue, the older prayers of the Mass from before Vatican II, a different schedule of Saints and Masses (liturgical calendar), etc, etc. The Novus Ordo in Latin is the same Mass you see in your neighborhood parish, just in Latin.  It keeps the same post-VII calendar, prayers, etc.

I, for one, am eager to help!  My e-mail is larryr103@gmail.com.  There was quite a bit of demand for Latin Mass in the northern part of the Diocese, which is why the Mass at St. Mark got started, but that Mass has had a troubled history, unfortunately. The support dramatically waned due to several factors.

Hopefully you’ll come back and I can be of service.  Leave a comment.



Novus Ordo Latin, traditional-style:



1. Gina Florencia - July 9, 2013

I’ll love to have Latin Mass in Rockwall too! But how?

David - July 11, 2013

Gina, I don’t know how close you are to Interstate 30, but you could drive to St. Williams in Greenville and attend the Novus Ordo Latin Mass there. I really don’t know anything about Our Lady of the Lake in Rockwall, but Greenville is not very far from Rockwall, and I would think traffic eastbound on IH-30 on Sunday mornings from Rockwall would be lighter than normal.

I have gone to a few Masses celebrated by Fr. Paul Weinberger, and he is an excellent priest. The first time I recall hearing the words of consecration in Latin was at a Mass I attended when Fr. Paul Weinberger was assigned to Blessed Sacrament.

A few years ago, I attended a wedding where Fr. Paul Weinberger celebrated the Nuptial Mass. My two friends asked him to do their wedding, and that was one of the best Nuptial Masses I have witnessed.

By the way Tantamergo, thank you for explaining in your post the differences between the Novus Ordo Latin Mass and the Traditional Latin Mass. I learned a little bit more today.

2. L - July 9, 2013

If she means the Mckinney area, tell her to put me on the list.

3. John - July 9, 2013

I have friends out of Texas that were able to stand n front of the church and get signatures to petition the parish priest. Its likely smart first to ask the priest if he’s interested (many are, but are forced to keep it on the down-low). You never know until you ask for a Traditional Latin Mass (or Extraordinary Form of the Roman Rite). The Papal Motu Proprio, Summorum Pontificum will even provide directions for the lay-faithful on how to start a Mass like this in your parish. The Priests have a Duty to provide it since 2007 when the Motu Proprio was released, If you don’t have luck getting a priest to agree, they need to contact Ecclesia Dei, at the Vatican. Good luck!

4. RS - July 10, 2013

Sorry it took me so long to respond. I’m actually a dude, not a girl lol.
Yea, I meant the TLM not the Novus Ordo Latin. I’m located in Denton, but by northern suburbs I meant anywhere from Decatur to Collin County or somewhere, somewhere where there could be a central location where we could all meet. It might be a somewhat selfish reason for having the Latin Mass up this way, so apologies, I prefer the TLM but am a college student so my funds are limited so driving to Irving isn’t really feasible for me to drive there, and I thought other might have this issue. Plus, I figured there has to be well over 100k Catholics in the northern suburbs so there would be a demand for it. I have met obstacles from a certain parish priest in this area, so I thought I would reach out on here. If a priest from Mater Dei would be interested in doing it once or twice a month or something that would be great.

tantamergo - July 10, 2013

Bah, if I had a brain I would have known from your e-mail. But I have a way to see comments w/o e-mail or any other ID, and that’s how I read yours. So, I didn’t know. Sorry, brotha.

tantamergo - July 10, 2013

No, I agree. I would love the TLM to be closer. I drive 30 minutes each way if I am lucky, sometimes it takes over an hour. But Mater Dei was given a very limited geographical region in which to establish a parish – basically, they had to stay in the hood. Can’t have it be too close to where the demand is, or they might have 2000 or more each Sunday rather than the present thousand.

Still, it’s growing.

One more small point, Denton and Wise counties are in the FW Diocese. FW really needs to develop its own TLM parish, whether it be diocesan, FSSP, IBP (French court priests with the finest lace in cowtown, it would be awesome!), or whatever.

David - July 11, 2013

RS, to my knowledge, there is a TLM in Fort Worth. While it has been a long time since I have attended , I recall that St. Mary the Assumption (I know it at least an hour drive from Denton since it is south of downtown Fort Worth) does the TLM on Sunday evenings. When I would go, a priest from the FSSP (who came from Mater Dei) said Mass. There was also Rosary before Mass, and the FSSP priest was available for the Sacrament of Reconciliation.

RS, have you mentioned the TLM to the priest at Blessed John Paul in Denton (that’s close to the University of North Texas)?

By the way, Fort Worth is currently without a bishop. Maybe the new bishop will establish a TLM parish in the diocese, or the new bishop could bring in at least two priests from the FSSP or the Institute of Christ the King and delegate a parish (like St. Mary the Assumption) that is set up for the TLM to one of these orders. I say this because some dioceses have successfully done this.

Some of the smaller towns have beautiful churches. I’m sure a place like Muenster (with its large Catholic population) has a Catholic church where the TLM could be said.

I know some diocesan priests are being trained in Latin. There was a good story about a parish in either the Archdiocese of Detroit or the Diocese of Lansing that had a successful transition.

5. Woody - July 10, 2013

I was told that the bishop does not want a TLM or any Latin Mass at a parish (other than Mater Dei) on Sundays because of the competition it would create between masses. I believe that there are no priests in the diocese who know Latin that can offer the TLM, other than the FSSP priests at Mater Dei, of course. Father Hopka only knows the NO Latin Mass.

6. Steve - July 10, 2013

At the 7:30 A.M. Mass this past Sunday at Saint Mark’s, it was announced that Masses at said parish would be shortened this summer to allow the church to “cool down” between Masses.

We were informed that a reduction, for example, in time alloted to liturgical music and sermons would enable Masses to speed along.

The 7:30 A.M. Mass lasted about 40 minutes.

I felt robbed and cheated at Mass. But then, I have also been right as a Latin Church Catholic to worship God at Saint Mark’s (my parish) via the Traditional Roman Mass.

I recall that during the late 1960s and into the 1970s, we were assured that the Novus Ordo revolution would usher a new liturgical and spiritual springtime into the Church. The big, bad time of the rushed Low Mass mentality was over in the Latin Church.

Well, in 2013 A.D., at least at Saint Mark’s, the let’s-speed-up-each-Mass-and-rush-to-the-parking-lot-as-fast-as-possible mentality is alive and well.

The only difference is that Low Mass is now in the vernacular.

Please Saint Mark’s, at least give us sung, chanted and grand Novus Ordo Mass…with Latin and Gregorian Chant…as Holy Mother Church teaches.

Oh, and please give us the Traditional Roman Mass as is our right to request…and expect. Thank you.

Rev. C. G. Smith - July 10, 2013

The 7:30 a.m. Mass on Sunday at St. Mark’s normally runs about 45 minutes so it was a mere 5 minutes short of the norm. There is no singing/music at that Mass except on Easter and Christmas by a long-standing preference of those who attend regularly. The only music that is shortened are the entrance, recession and Communion music, and although they may at times run longer than their proper place in the liturgy, they should not, as that is the tail wagging the dog. Music must serve the liturgy, not the other way around. We have neither removed nor shortened any of the normally sung responses or prayers. What we have done is to try to accommodate the comfort of worshipers during the hottest days of the summer. I would rather shorten the Mass by 5-10 minutes than have people not come because they are afraid it will be too hot. We have 8 Masses on Sunday, back to back, with only 30 minutes in between. Most Masses have from 900-1200 attending. In January we are adding a second Vigil Mass. No one ever imagined a Catholic Church with 9600 households and 33,000 registered parishioners. We do what we must and can to make the experience at St. Mark both welcoming and comfortable.

Woody - July 10, 2013

Interesting that you would use the phrase “tail wagging the dog” and then end the paragraph that you do what you must and can to make the experience at St. Mark welcoming and comfortable for the congregation. Unless of course the congregation want a TLM on Sundays.

7. Steve - July 10, 2013

The Chancery and parishes priests in Dallas pretended for years that scant interest in our diocese existed for the Traditional Roman Mass. The wonderful growth that Mater Dei has experienced destroyed that claim.

There isn’t any question that a Sunday Traditional Roman Mass offered regularly at Saint Mark’s…or one of the Plano/Richardson parishes…would be filled each week.

tantamergo - July 10, 2013

Well, maybe not filled, some of those parishes can seat an awful lot of people, but I think attendance would be good enough to justify the Mass.

I don’t know about Sunday, that would require some thinking. My thought was more a midweek TLM somewhere.

8. Steve - July 10, 2013

It has fascinated me for years that the Dallas Diocese (and the following applies to virtually each Latin Church diocese on earth) has worked to prevent Traditional Latin Masses and, for that matter, Latin/Gregorian Chant Novus Ordo Masses, from spreading throughout the diocese.

Only about 18 percent of Dallas area Catholics assist regularly at Mass (Novus Ordo).

Some 80 to 82 percent of Catholics in our area prefer to spend their weekends away from Mass.

Conversely, scores of Dallas area Catholics would love…they plead…to assist at Mass via the Traditional Roman Rite.

But the Chancery refuses Mass to Catholics who wish to assist at Mass.

What an unbelievable attitude the majority of Latin Church bishops, priests and influential religious and lay leaders have in regard to their very own Latin Church Tradition.

How sad it is to thwart Latin Church Faithful from worshiping God via the Traditional Roman Mass.

9. RS - July 10, 2013

I agree with you Steve, it baffles me that Dallas and Ft. Worth diocese combined have probably close to 2 million Catholics or more…yet only 1 single TLM. While in contrast, the diocese that I am from (Birmingham, AL), there are 3..and I have been told that another one is in the works there, the bishop of Birmingham is pro TLM, I went to his Latin Christmas Eve Mass this year where he was the celebrant. There are good parishes here in Dallas, but it is a spiritual wasteland for those of us who want something traditional, other than Mater Dei, which I am greatly thankful for.
The past 2 months over summer vacation, I have been going over the new Mass, and the funeral rites, and last rites, everything down to the new blessings for holy water, and I finally realized that I could no longer attend the new Mass anymore (I recognize it’s still valid), however it has deficits in many places, and I think the post VII Church reflects this. After having found the TLM, I feel much more deep in my faith and closer to the Church.

tantamergo - July 10, 2013

I know many people who have walked your path. Yes, it took 30+ years, but eventually all the Rites, even exorcism, were changed. Exorcists HATE the new rite, because it rips the heart out of the Rite and removes a huge number of prayers that were very efficacious of Grace. In fact, the new exorcism Rite reads like a public service of some kind, which it most manifestly is NOT. It’s almost nonsensical in its present form, and most exorcists have petitioned to use the old Rite, as the new one seems, in comparison, very ineffective.

10. Steve - July 10, 2013

When Summorum Pontificum was promulgated, I asked a priest at a conservative, shall we say, northern part of the Dallas Diocese parish, to please offer the Traditional Roman Mass.

He replied that the Pope had taught that only Catholics who had grown up prior to Vatican II were permitted to assist at the Traditional Roman Mass.

For anybody else, attendance at said Mass was sinful.

I walked away…but returned a few minutes later to state to the priest in question that he was mistaken.

He replied…”the bottom line is that I refuse to offer a Latin Mass..ever…The Mass in Latin is opposed and harmful to my spirituality.”

That is 100 percent true. That is what he said to me.

That is what we, Catholics who long to worship God via the Traditional Roman Mass, are up against in the Dallas Diocese.

tantamergo - July 10, 2013

Yeah, it’s amazing the lines (lies) they’ll throw at you. Harmful to HIS spirituality – forget all you souls in the pews, shut up and get back to praying, paying, and obeying.

It’s funny how the “new springtime” that was supposed to end the “bad old days” of clericalism has wound up with a clericalism much more invasive, repressive, and dismissive than the original. Completely predictable, but funny, nonetheless.

11. John - July 10, 2013

“The only difference is that Low Mass is now in the vernacular.”
I assure you that there are more differences between the two masses then just turning the the TLM (Extraordinary Form) into the Novus Ordo (Ordinary Form).
The feeling of the sacrifice is not present in the Novus Ordo and its more of a “Supper” with the priest facing the crowd. The music at the ordinary Form is more of a “look at me and my band” than look at the cross, see the tabernacle, and Father representing and providing the sacrifice for the people. There is nothing “invalid” about the ordinary form as some wacko folks tend to say, but the extraordinary form (TLM) is so much more reverent, and tends to attract younger folks, big non-contracepting married couples. Its really a lovely form of the Roman Rite –
A note of caution when speaking to the parish preist – He is BUSY man. There are also forces with every diocese that hate the extraordinary form for unknown reasons. But there are definitely priests that love it – Who knows they may even be performing these masses in private!

Again, evryone has the right to respectfully request this mass, especially if you have some numbers behind the request. This is directly appropriate according to Summorum Pontificum. If the preist doesnt wat to (or cant, especially due to time issues) the Vatican should be contacted.

Quote : :Art. 7. If a group of lay faithful, as mentioned in art. 5 õ 1, has not obtained satisfaction to their requests from the pastor, they should inform the diocesan bishop. The bishop is strongly requested to satisfy their wishes. If he cannot arrange for such celebration to take place, the matter should be referred to the Pontifical Commission “Ecclesia Dei”.”

tantamergo - July 10, 2013

I should add that the Pontifical Commission Ecclesia Dei and Congregation for Divine Worship have both used, as a rule of thumb, the number of ~25 souls as defining a stable community to request the TLM. Having more is better. Get names signed up on some kind of list. Have contact info available.

12. Paul Mitchell - July 10, 2013

I live in Plano, and am a parishioner at St. Mark’s because Mater Dei is simply too far away. I would gladly attend mass in the extraordinary form if it were available near me.

Woody - July 10, 2013

I believe there are hundreds that would attend if the TLM was offered on a Sunday in the Plano area. I would like to see it at different parish than St. Marks as the sanctuary is more suitable for the NO and not suitable for a TLM. Perhaps there should be a meeting of all people that would like to have a TLM said in the Plano area. If indeed the number was a hundred or more, the group could begin a humble request to have a Sunday TLM said in the Plano area. Does anyone know of a priest, other than those at Mater Dei, that would be interested in learning how say the TLM and could accommodate such a group?

tantamergo - July 10, 2013

Some things are better not said online. I get plenty of visitors from cathdal.org.

But the meeting is a fine idea. I heartily endorse it.

Woody - July 10, 2013

Please excuse my ignorance. I should have known better considering Fr. Cliff follows this blog.

13. Mary - July 10, 2013

Remember that the NO Latin Mass is Plano has been messed with, and is not made public (via the bulletin, Mass listings, etc), so that attendance is ‘minimal’. Whatever Mass you negotiate, make sure that you negotiate the “do the red, say the black’ and the publicity is allowed. The Monday Mass at St Marks isn’t growing. Unless the priest/parish is on-board, he can make it a less-than pleasant experience.

14. L - July 10, 2013

I have lived abroad where the TLM is offered. It is amazing how people of different cultures/languages come together to worship. If the TLM were offered more freely here there would more than likely be less need for Masses in Spanish, etc., the faithful would be more united with each other rather than segregated as it is now. There are priests in this diocese that can offer the TLM not just the priests from Mater Dei. BTW, I am very grateful that St. Mark does offer the Mass in Latin, though it is the NO. Thank you Fr. Cliff!

tantamergo - July 10, 2013

That is a nice comment. And very true. The only reason Mater Dei needed to get a priest that speaks Spanish is because of the Confessional. It had nothing to do with Mass.

15. Fr. Rodriguez on the benefits of the Traditional Mass | A Blog for Dallas Area Catholics - July 10, 2013

[…] Latin Mass, which I thought fit in nicely with the discussion going on in the comments section here.  Some excerpts from the synopsis of Father’s talk, along with some pics from this great blog […]

16. Steve - July 10, 2013

Something is terribly wrong if Catholics would refuse to assist at Mass during the summer…or any time…unless five to 10 minutes were lopped from Mass.

What kind of love of God does that signify?

More than a few times on Saturday evenings during summers past, I have driven past Saint Mark’s (and additional parishes)…temperatures were as high as 107 degrees…and the parking lot was filled with cars.

I have assisted at a few such Masses…and said Masses brimmed with worshipers.

At any rate, something is wrong with a Catholic, who would refuse to drive in an air-conditioned car (which 99.9 percent of us possess) to air-conditioned Saint Mark’s unless five to 10 minutes were shaved from the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass.

Perhaps such a Catholic should be exposed to the Traditional Roman Mass at Saint Mark’s. Said Mass may well instill in he or she a greater sense of love for God and Liturgy than he or she has received from the the Ordinary Form of Mass.

That is not meant to be nasty. We are aware that a great many Catholics who have been exposed to the Traditional Roman Mass have developed a tremendous desire to assist at Mass.

They will drive for hours to worship God…whatever it takes to get to Mass. They don’t seek shortened Masses.

17. Steve - July 10, 2013

“If the TLM were offered more freely here there would more than likely be less need for Masses in Spanish, etc., the faithful would be more united with each other rather than segregated as it is now.”

Yes. That is something that has saddened me in regard to Saint Mark’s…and I realize that they are far from alone in regard to the following:

The refusal at Saint Mark’s to offer Mass in our official, God-inspired, unifying Latin language has encouraged segregation.

We are a balkanized English Mass-only…Spanish Mass-only…parish.

Conversely, Latin promotes unity among Catholics, as Pope Blessed John XXIII declared.

18. KathiBee - July 11, 2013

ai-yai-yai……..I don’t know if it’s only my computer, but I went to the link you provided in the wording, “his statement on the matter from 2007 still stands” — well, let me just say that I believe you made a mistake in the url b/c you would NOT want your readers seeing what I saw when I opened that link.

tantamergo - July 11, 2013

Sorry, Kathi, I’ll check but it was OK when I went there.

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