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Changing the prayers of the Church led to the change in belief July 17, 2013

Posted by Tantumblogo in Basics, disaster, error, General Catholic, horror, Interior Life, Latin Mass, scandals, secularism, shocking, Society, Tradition.

From Traditional Catholic priest, a great post. When the chief prayer of the Church – the Mass – was changed, it was inevitable that the beleifs of the faithful would change.  Lex Orandi, Lex Credendi – how we pray will guide/determine how we believe.

We need to do go the root of the problem of mass desertion from the church, mass distortion of the catholic teachings, and the immoral way that most catholics are living today.

My hypothesis is this: since we have stopped offering the Tridentine mass and the other Tridentine rites ( e.g.  Baptism), and began offering the Novus Ordo Mass and rites, (Lex Orandi), that this change in how we pray (Lex Orandi), has caused the great exodus of catholics from the church and the dissension of most catholics with catholic teaching like birth control, same sex marriage, abortion, and divorce (Lex Credendi).

This ancient catholic saying “Lex Orandi, Lex Credendi” means “As we pray so we believe”.   I think that the second part “Lex Credendi, Lex Vivendi” which means “As we believe so we live”was added on later. [I have seen this presented in modern sources many times as “we pray as we believe,” but that is not what the intent of this statement really is – it really is, we beliee as we pray, which is quite different in meaning. It’s an important distinction.]

[And now, for the bloodletting…….]

So, being a stickler on empirical evidence, I want to empirically show, with statistics, that because we changed our Holy Mass and other catholic rites, that most catholics do not believe in what the catholic church teaches and therefore are not living as catholics.  The other empirical statistics are abundant when it comes to catholics falling away or not practicing the catholic faith since the liturgical change to the New Mass and Rites.

Empirical statistics on the Catholic Church the United States of America from cara.Georgetown University study 2012.

Priests. In 1965, 58,632   in 2012, 38,964. By 2020 over half will be over 70.

Ordinations. In 1965, 994 new priests ordained.  In 2012, 480 new priests ordained.

Parishes. In 1965, 549 parishes were without priests.  Today 3,389 parishes with out.

Graduate-level Seminarians.  In 1965 there were 8,325.  In 2012, 3,723.  In 1965 there were 600 seminaries.  Today 189 seminaries.

Women Religious.  In 1965 there were 179,954 sisters.  In 2012, 54,018.  Average age 68.

From other sources;

Mass attendence.  Gallop Pole showed that 1958, 3 in 4 catholics attend Sunday Mass.  Now Notre Dame Univ. found that 1 in 4 attend. [I dispute this. I think people over-report how often they assist at Mass. My own study in several dioceses, including Dallas, Boston, San Antonio, and two others, indicates to me that, based on parish size, Catholic population reports from dioceses, and weekly attendance figures, average Mass attendance is more like 10-15%. Even 70 years ago, then Archbishop Cushing of Boston was defending low Mass attendance (about 50%) by saying “if everyone came to Mass, we wouldn’t have room!”  That’s even more true today, by a huge degree]

Annulments.  1968 there were 338.  In 2002 there were 50,000. (Kenneth C Jones)

Catholic women make up 31% of the U.S. population and account for 31% of abortions.  From Alissa J. Rubin “The Catholic Abortion Paradox”.

Marriages.  I tried googling marriage statistics and only came up with older statistics that show a steep decline in catholic marriages.  But as a pastor for 10 years, I witnessed a huge decline in marriages.  Most couples today just live together and maybe later on will get married civilly and have a con-validation ceremony in the church.

[And now for a great conclusion:]

If the content of our catholic prayers and liturgies are correct, you will see correct catholic beliefs in the catholic people.  If our catholic beliefs are correct we will see catholics living holy lives.  I think we all traditional catholic agree that for the good of our beloved catholic church, we need to return to the Mass of all Ages and the other Tridentine Rites and we will see a reverse in the decline of our church and correct beliefs amongst the faithful.  And the final result will be happier souls and families.  God, Mary, St. Joseph will be happy too

I agree with this priest!


1. Steve - July 18, 2013

The unfortunate reality is that Rome, our bishops and all but a relative few priests have made it clear that the Novus Ordo is here to stay.

Even Pope (Emeritus) Benedict XVI by word and deed made it 100 percent clear that the Novus Ordo will remain front and center in the Latin Church.

If anything, consider the tremendous resistance among Cardinals, bishops and priests to any effort to offer Latin Novus Ordo Masses.

That alone would indicate that our Churchmen are not about to allow the Traditional Roman Mass to again serve as the Latin Church’s primary Mass.

2. Steve - July 18, 2013

What I find striking is the manner in which many older Catholics who had grown up with the Traditional Roman conduct themselves during Mass.

Once upon a time, said Catholics were instilled with a holy and, if you will, strict understanding of the Faith.

If anything, no matter how they may have acted outside Mass, as soon as they had entered a church, for Mass or otherwise, it was unthinkable for them to conduct themselves in anything less than orderly and respectful fashion.

These days, said folks, who had been formed in the days of the Traditional Roman Mass (as the Latin Church’s primary Mass), are often the most casual of Mass goers.

That is what, if you will, Novus Ordoism has done to them.

Novus Ordoism melted them down and reshaped their manner of belief and conduct.

Just imagine what today’s younger Catholics, who have never been to a Traditional Roman Mass, are up against?

How can they possibly think and act in Traditional Catholic fashion?

It is painful to realize that Catholics who were once formed by the Traditional Roman Mass, now often dress casually for Mass…chatter in church…have lost their sense of Holy Tradition.

Again, so many of today’s Catholic youth just don’t have a chance…

3. TG - July 18, 2013

Steve, your comments are so true. I grew up in the Traditional Roman mass up until around age 10 or so. I fell away from the church and occasionally attended Mass. It bothered me how casual people acted and the way the dressed. Even though I fell away from the church, I still had respect and reverence for God. Now it really gets on my nerves when I see old people talk so much in church and have their cell phones on. Those old ladies should know better.

4. SteveB - July 18, 2013

Fr. Peter Carota, Tantamergo, Steve, & TG,

Right you all are, on all fronts.

In a nutshell, the problem emanates from the seismic shift after Vatican II from a God-centered (theocentric) Liturgy (the Traditional Latin Mass), over to a much more man-centered (homocentric) Liturgy (the Novus Ordo Missae).

Once Catholics focus their attention during Mass more upon themselves (which is what the inculturation and “Family of God”/community emphases do), God ultimately gets pulled down to our level as merely our “Friend”.

When that happens, the secular/profane has infiltrated the sanctuary, and Catholics by-and-large don’t think or act in as reverent a fashion as they did 2+ generations ago.

All of the empirical evidence merely proves what happened long ago in the Garden of Eden and at Babel – when man puts himself in a prioritized position/emphasis rather than God, everything starts to completely unravel….

Dr. Lauren Pristas’ soon-to-be-released book takes a close look at the clear-cut theocentric vs. homocentric differences between the Collect prayers in the Novus Ordo Missae and the Traditional Latin Mass:


Check it out!

Pax et benedictiones tibi, per Christum Dominum nostrum,

Steve B

5. Michael P. Mc Crory. - July 18, 2013

Did you do anything about those cell phone users ? If ( like 99 per cent of catholics I know) you did nothing then ‘you’ are the REAL reason that the Church is in a mess. NOT the new mass.

Our inner beliefs should be reflected in our outward actions.

How about a little charitable outrage and corrective action? I have done it – to great effect- maybe 100 times and much to the annoyance of do-nothing clergy.
Once I took the microphone before mass when there were maybe about 40 out of 140 chattering away loudly ( and after the priest refused my request ) and said:
“Please remember that we are in the Presence of God.”
That was all. The entire congregation fell silent until mass started 5 to 10 minutes later. They just needed a bit of, sadly lacking, guidance.

Pius ix,(I think) said.

” All the evils of the world can be traced back to the timidity or rather the cowardice of the faithful.” That is the real reason for the sad state of the Church and, I repeat, NOT the English mass.

When back in Ireland five years ago I took the microphone after mass to inform all present that their priest had just defied Rome by giving no Sunday homily whatsoever. One man complained to me.
” Sure what’s he going to tell us that we don’t already know?”
And he had a point. Very little and they know very little.

6. Michael P. Mc Crory. - July 18, 2013

Oh ! I forgot to say:
Both were Novus Ordo masses. ?
So I do understand.

7. SteveB - July 18, 2013

@ Michael P. Mc Crory,

Please, with all due respect, Michael, study the prayers used in both Liturgies before you conclusively decide that the Novus Ordo has nothing to do with the detriment of the faith over the past 40+ years.

Certainly, none of us who do see a serious problem with the Novus Ordo claim that it is the most egregious problem the Church has been grappling with – just that it is a significant contributing factor amongst a litany of problematic issues (exceedingly deficient catechesis at the very top, by almost everyone’s assessment).

And, neither Tantamergo nor I are saying that the Novus Ordo is an invalid Liturgy either. We merely claim that it is inherently less efficacious than the TLM as a means of providing graces to the faithful – in a manner very similiar to the way that a seriously sinful Priest plays a role in limiting the graces provided to the faithful during Holy Mass.

Is it merely a coincidence that those faithful who attend the TLM would never even DREAM of doing the irreverent things done by many today during Novus Ordo Masses?

I don’t think so.

And the significant and inherently different theological emphases of the two Liturgies plays a huge role for why reverence is consistently present before, during, and after a TLM, and why it is very often absent before, during, and immediately after many Novus Ordo Masses (e.g. think of how common there is a mass-exodus during and right after Holy Communion at many Novus Ordo Masses).

Pax et benedictiones tibi, per Christum Dominum nostrum,

Steve B

8. Michael P.Mc Crory. - July 19, 2013

Thanks Steve,
We agree except for one thing- which mass is best?
People who are trained in the Faith properly ( as I was back in the ‘Latin’ 50’s) and understand love the mass behave properly – no matter which mass.
End of discussion.
It goes back to the training.

The sexual revolution in the 60’s messed everybody up including priests and bishops. Few were men of prayer and could not cope.

We were not up to the challenge.
“When the rubber hit the road” all the (manmade) defieciencies in our beautiful Church were exposed.
( Vat ii,it was hoped would correct that.)
We had taken her for granted. We did not have the foundation we thought we had to withstand the storm of dissent that followed.
When, what could have been the Church’s finest moment in denouncing and opposing these new trends the bishops and clergy caved in by trying to
accommodate Christ’s teaching to them. They did not have the grace needed.
Men of prayer???
How often do you EVER see 95 per cent of priests in prayer before the Blessed Sacrament?
“Ay! There’s the rub.”

I still say it Steve, get off the Latin mass kick. It is unnecessarily divisive – when we both love our Church. It is not the answer you think it is. And I have the Church’s backing on that point.

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