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Does Cardinal Dolan have a vicious antipathy towards the Mass? June 17, 2014

Posted by Tantumblogo in Basics, disaster, episcopate, error, foolishness, General Catholic, Holy suffering, Latin Mass, persecution, scandals, secularism, self-serving, sexual depravity, sickness, Society, the return.

The news coming out of New York is increasingly disturbing.  The Archdiocese is considering closing many parishes. On that list of likely closures is one of the few remaining TLM parishes – Holy Innocents -as well as Fr. George Rutler’s new parish of St. Michael’s in Hell’s Kitchen.  There is a surprise about St. Michael’s at the end of the video, make sure you see that.

As Michael Voris notes below, the Archdiocese not only plans to close Holy Innocents, it seems they plan to relocate the TLMs thus displaced to a parish that supports “gay pride” and other diabolical departures from the Faith!  That’s not just a slap in the face, that’s a flipping the bird while dancing on the coffin of Holy Innocents.  Wow.

Remember, a priest assigned to Holy Innocents gave a strong sermon denouncing the closure and encouraging Catholics who love the Mass (TLM) to assert their rights.  That priest was cashiered personally by Cardinal Dolan and Dolan took as many steps as he could to permanently wreck that priest’s career.  So it seems there may be some personal animosity involved in this effort to put Catholics in their place.  But the sodomites are given free reign to march in declaration of their sin, with the Cardinal’s personal presence and blessing.

This is just diabolical.  The worst persecution will come from those who call themselves Catholic. We are in a time when bishops and priests tell Catholics that their faithfulness is sin, while they give support and encouragement to heretics and sinners of all stripes. It’s not the first time such has occurred in the Church, as I hope to demonstrate a little later. But it is indicative that the Church is in as deep a crisis as She has ever experienced, and that remaining faithful will be a painful and frustrating task.

“Giving the establishment Church more money is like enabling an alcoholic.”

I cannot agree MORE with Michael’s call to withhold donations.  That is the ONLY way to effect change with the established powers in the Church.  They are not going away.  The only leverage the faithful have is their donations.  Should enough faithful withhold their donations, change could – could – be effected.

That does not mean one is absolved of the Precept to support the Church financially. However, there are many ways to do so, and it is not of precept that one must support the parish in whose boundaries they reside.  There are worthy organizations within the Church that can be supported with a clear conscience.  But at this point, that would include very few, if any, dioceses.  We have personally cut off all funding for any diocesan organizations.  That will continue until some very great changes occur.  But we do give very generously to faithful religious orders, some private relief funds, groups like the St. Vincent Ferrer Foundation, some traditional parishes (in certain ways, to avoid diocesan assessment of funds), etc.

Giving to your parish supports the established Church bureaucracy.  All parishes are “assessed”, or taxed, by all dioceses to various degrees.  Should enough faithful withhold donations, you would see a sudden change in attitude towards a much greater willingness to address pious concerns.  I have understood from many souls they are really uncomfortable doing so, but I really think that discomfort not just misplaced, but that continuing to sustain the present order in the Church is just going to insure the crisis continues.

That is to say, if you really want to see change, put your money where your mouth is. I can’t say it any plainer than that.


1. Mary Griffin - June 17, 2014

And when we stop giving money to our dioceses, then there will be no churches at all, no priests, no Mass, no sacraments Oh yea, this is a really good idea and must certainly be inspired, but I don’t think the inspiration is from above.

Tantumblogo - June 17, 2014

This is a ludicrous comment.

Many souls have felt compelled to stop donating to agencies that either perform immoral acts themselves, or turn monies over to other groups who perform immoral or questionable acts. You seem to imply doing so is a great moral failing. This is ludicrous. By giving money to most dioceses, you are at the very least helping spread error, in many cases fund contraception, or immoral sexual beliefs/practices.

And you apparently did not read the entire post. I did not say souls were totally absolved of their mandate to support the Church. I simply said they must carefully choose where they donate. What I advocate is for truly moral Catholic parishes, agencies, groups, orders, etc, to receive a massive increase in funding, and the problematic ones to see a significant drop. Obviously this message only reaches a tiny portion of the Church, and only a small percentage of those are likely to participate, so we’re talking about small changes, not the sudden end to all funding for every Church endeavor, which isn’t even what I recommended.

But nice try.

Mary Griffin - June 17, 2014

So it’s okay if only a few people willfully ignore their God-given responsibility to support the Church. But doesn’t that defeat the whole purpose of Voris’s proposal? He said the “establishment” church is on its death bed, and we need to starve it to death so we can begin anew.

If that doesn’t sound diabolical, then I don’t know what does.

Tantumblogo - June 17, 2014

You keep ignoring the fact that I never said people could just not support the Church. You are conflating parish for Church.

Mary Griffin - June 17, 2014

You quoted Michael Voris:

“Giving the establishment Church more money is like enabling an alcoholic.”

You wrote that you could not agree more. Maybe you need to re-read your own post.

Baseballmom - June 17, 2014

Is this the Mary Griffin who is the business administrator for the Diocese of Syracuse? Just curious…

Mary Griffin - June 17, 2014

Nope. And if I was, what difference would that make?

Baseballmom - June 17, 2014

Ahh…. Yes! The famous “Hillary” line…. “What difference does it make?!!!” Well, in this case, it would make a HUGE difference. Because, as a diocesan employee, your salary would be very dependent on parishioner donations. And this issue would hit you very close to home. To me, that would appear obvious… But then, I’m just a simple little ol’ mama of 8 and granny of 10…. What the heck do I know????

Allie - June 18, 2014

No, Mary, what is diabolical is the original point of this post.

Parishes that advocate for active homosexual lifestyles (and other sins) against Church teaching are left alone, while parishes (and priests) that are orthodox (and heaven forbid, Traditional) are made to suffer and/or be closed. To clarify (because you may have missed the point of this story), those that are orthodox to Church teaching are punished while those that are truly diabolical in action are perfectly acceptable in the Cardinal’s (and Archdiocese) eyes. To rub salt in their orthodox wounds, they can merge with the heterodox parishes.

It would diabolical to support this scenario financially, by silence, or by any other means. You do agree with that, right Mary?

In the mean time prayer is certainly in order for all involved.

2. Branch - June 17, 2014

Can you explain why this would be so?

“Should enough faithful withhold donations, you would see a sudden change in attitude towards a much greater willingness to address pious concerns.”

What is they assumed that people of like mind simply left the Church or Diocese and so can be ignored?

Mary Griffin - June 17, 2014

And where do you find any precedence for this either scripturally or in church history? And did you know that it is a sin to willfully refuse to support your bishop and diocese financially? Do we still believe the Holy Spirit is in charge? Or do we think he has been overpowered by these “horrible prelates” and we need to take matters into our own hands?

Michael Voris is a spiritual danger to souls.

Tantumblogo - June 17, 2014

No, he isn’t. And you are treading on thin ice with your calumnies.

It is not a sin to refuse to financially support a bishop or diocese that is engaged in activities contrary to the Faith. But even granting your argument, there is absolutely NO requirement to give X percentage of donations to the diocese or parish. And if there are serious reasons not to donate, those donations can be transferred to other, more morally acceptable destinations. So a person can – and I have queried multiple priests on this – in good conscience transfer 90-95% (or so) of their financial support from their parish/diocese to some other worthy entity.

BTW, do you tithe, Mary? A natural, gross income tithe? That IS scriptural, but 99.9% of Catholics do not donate even close to that amount. So if you want to talk sin……. .

In fact, Catholics are the most parsimonious givers of any major Christian group. Most Catholics give less than 1% to the Church.

Mary Griffin - June 17, 2014

Oh, it is wrong to say that Michael Voris is a danger to souls, but we can say anything we want about our duly ordained priests and bishops. People like Voris can go on the internet and demand that they all be fired and/or leave because their real goal is to destroy the Church. Voris can tell us to “starve” our dioceses because we don’t agree with everything that is going on. That’s okay?

Again I will ask you, where does Voris and where do you get your authority to make such statements? Where are we told you only have to support the Church if you agree with everything she is doing? Who and what gives us that authority to make such a judgment? What if I don’t personally feel there is any organization in the Catholic Church that is worthy of my money? Maybe I think the protestant church down the road is doing a better job. Should I be giving my money to them because I made that judgment?

Nice try in trying to change the subject in asking personal questions which are none of your business That is not the point and you know it. The point is, Michael Voris, and you by supporting his message, are telling people that they do not have to support the Body of Christ, which is sinful.

Or do you believe the Catholic Church is no longer the Mystical Body of Christ?

Tantumblogo - June 17, 2014

The change in subject is very relevant, if rhetorical.

This is a blog. It is not catechism 101. Obviously you have a strong personal antipathy towards Mr. Voris – in fact, I recall your comments in other places in the past.

Where, precisely, do we disagree? Calm down, and read my comments again. Unless you want to stake out the terrain that Catholics are required to tithe – which is why I brought it up – I have confirmed some donation does have to be given to a local parish but that the vast majority can be transferred to other entities if one feels compelled to do so based on one’s knowledge of ongoing problems at the parish and diocesan level. Do you want to dispute that? So you are arguing for a real tithe, then? Or if not a tithe, then what?

Re-read the original post. I said it was not of PRECEPT that Catholics had to give to their local parish and Diocese, only that they have to support the Church. I assume you know what a precept is, so that was a very specific claim.

Again, each blog post is not catechism 101, I don’t have time or interest in starting from first principles and shaping an elaborate argument to teach a certain point. This blog is polemical, always has been, always will be. It argues a certain viewpoint, one I think very much in consonance with the great Tradition of the Church.

You also need to think about the converse of your own argument in your most recent comment: you are claiming Catholics are required to direct most or all their donations to the local parish/diocese regardless of error taught, abuses permitted, sexual transgressions ongoing, etc. Where do you get the justification for that?

Aquinas, Bellarmine, Cajetan, Suarez and many more argue that it is not just a right but a duty for faithful Catholics to oppose error to the extent of their ability. And what greater ability does a lay person have than the power of their purse?

Tantumblogo - June 17, 2014

I would also say, speaking of misdirects, you have managed to make the conversation about Mr. Voris, instead of Cardinal Dolan’s inexplicable support for moral degeneracy and repeated persecutions of the most pliant, faithful Catholics. Which misdirect I am rapidly tiring of. I think I’ve repudiated your several attempts at argument enough. Knowing your past comments on Voris, nothing I say will ever convince you otherwise, so I think this conversation is over.

Luis - June 17, 2014

Nonsense. He’s just sticking up for tradition. The dangers to souls here are the horrible bishops! We need to tithe, but there can’t be anything wrong with punishing a nefarious bishop, bishops, or conference. A big whack on the face would do them a lot of good.

There is a slight chance that you are an agent of a diocese. Can’t be confirmed, of course, but you might be.

Luis - June 17, 2014

My comment was in reference to Mrs. Griffin.

LaGallina - June 17, 2014

“Do we still believe the Holy Spirit is in charge?”

Let me get this straight, Mary. By your reasoning we should be supportive of the atrocities taking place within the Church because the Holy Spirit is in charge. So I should support homosexuals in the priesthood, the abuse of children, etc. because since the Holy Spirit is in charge, it must be okay.

The Holy Spirit wants us to fight for the Truths of the Catholic Church. He wants us to fight to keep Holy Mother Church alive. He does not want us to accept the evil within the Church and say, “Well, I guess the Holy Spirit likes for little boys to be molested by priests because He is in charge after all.” What a ridiculous argument, Mary.

Tantumblogo - June 17, 2014

And I think the following post on St. Basil really points out the error very well, too. It shows that in the early Church, when it was struck by heresy, it was those who remained faithful, even while chastising heretical bishops, that are now the Saints and Doctors, and not those who fell into error.

Tantumblogo - June 17, 2014

This is actually a matter I have thought most carefully about. Yes, people in the institutional Church hate the conclusion I’ve reached, because it threatens them directly. Should more than a handful of people follow my own course and counsel, it would pose a grave threat to the status quo in the Church.

3. Luis - June 17, 2014

About TLM Catholics in NYC, my question would be, what on earth are they doing there paying outrageous prices for housing, taxes, and all kinds of other things? Some jobs can only be done in NYC, ok. DFW has private equity groups, though probably not as much as NYC. No stock or commodities markets in DFW, ok. But really, most of these NY Catholics are asking for trouble.

And BTW, NY, if you come to Texas, you’d better bring a small gov’t attitude. Texas doesn’t need any more leftists. Go punish California or Vermont.

4. Sir Louis - June 17, 2014

Let us also consider the possibility of donating in kind. The cathedraticum I believe is ordinarily assessed as a percentage of “plate” donations. If my parish is deserving but the chancery is not, there’s nothing that prevents my sending a check to the electric company to pay the light bill at my parish. I will be supporting my parish and fulfilling the precept to support the Church materially, but the Chancery will have to go begging somewhere else.

Mary Griffin - June 17, 2014

And who is going to pay for our priests? Who is going to support the other expenses of our churches? Do you think that the dioceses collect our money just to enrich themselves? How can any of us who are fallible, sinful human beings make the decision not to support the Body of Christ? If we start doing this, we will not have any more churches. Voris is always complaining about the shrinking church. We haven’t seen anything yet if we follow his advice.

Visitor - June 17, 2014

Appeasement does not work. If you found out that your bishop had been actively covering for priests who were sexual abusers, would you believe the same thing? If the answer is yes, then it seems to me that your argument is nothing more than a crutch by which you absolve yourself of making some tough moral judgments.

It also strikes me as odd that in the same comment thread, you argue that the Holy Spirit is in charge, and end up here, moaning about who will pay for the priests and church expenses. See your previous comment: the Holy Spirit will provide, but Catholics are not obligated to support evil.

Tantumblogo - June 17, 2014

No Mary, Michael does not seek to destroy the Church – and I won’t publish comments claiming such – he believes the Church is already in an advance state of destruction because of the hideous leadership She has suffered for the past 50-60 years, and that we are in a time for desperate action. Action that is very uncomfortable and difficult, but absolutely necessary – like holding an intervention with an alcoholic.

Michael hopes and prays the bishops, bureaucrats, and others will respond to this last ditch attempt to show them the faithful are extraordinarily dismayed at the present state of the Church and its prospects for the future. The hope is not to destroy the Church, but to completely shake up its leadership, including radical changes in outlook, rhetoric, and practice, an end to persecution to faithful Catholics and a return to the perennial practice of the Faith. The Church is collapsing at an accelerating pace, but if the leadership ditch the modernism, the worldliness, and return to what the Church has always believed and done, then he and I hope and believe the prospects for the Church generally and individual souls in particular will dramatically improve. The only worldly power the people have is their pocketbook, and the situation today is so severe it is time for the faithful to exercise it.

In reality, Voris desires desperately to see the Church returned to stability, even glory. I desire the same. But the embedded bureaucrats in and out of cassock – hah – have given no indication they see any need to reform themselves or any of their Church apparatus. This means the rot will only continue. So we pray a financial incentive may move them. And all this is about what our sensus fidei tells us is good for souls.

Or do we not have the right to follow our consciences anymore?

Woody - June 17, 2014

Here, here. And a hearty hurumph, hurumph.

Baseballmom - June 17, 2014

Amen. Thank you.

5. Woody - June 17, 2014

Interesting thread on tithing “to the Church,” not necessarily the parish or diocese. Is a personal parish such as Mater Dei part of the Dallas diocese and subject to giving the diocese a percentage of the parish tithe?

Tantumblogo - June 17, 2014

MD is assessed, yes. There are some ways around it. More of an offline discussion.

Woody - June 17, 2014

Understand. Thanks.

skeinster - June 18, 2014

I was wondering about this as well. But someone has to pony up something for the diocesan assessment, it would seem, or risk having our doors closed.
I imagine our ‘living on air” with nothing in the plate would attract attention. And not in a good way.

Woody - June 18, 2014

Such is the life of the orthodox, TLM Catholic. I remember a priest that would not go along with the NO when it was instituted. Although he was a diocesan priest, he went “underground” and went all over the US saying the TLM to those groups who wanted the Mass. He said the Mass mostly in people’s homes. He died before the pontificate of Benedict XVI.

6. TG - June 17, 2014

I stopped giving directly to my Diocese since I don’t trust Catholic Charities and there is no Latin Mass in my area. I do support my parish even if no Latin Mass because it’s one of the more traditional parishes around here. I like to give to the maternity shelters directly and FSSP. A person can have Masses said for the deceased. There are all kinds of way to give to God what is his. One priest said Catholics are the most stingy. Telling people they should give what they can afford is really a mistake because after the pay for their cable, iphones, they will have nothing left to give. I agree with the Protestants on the 10%. (Good blog – congrats – you now have a troll.)

7. St. Basil’s trials mirror our own time | A Blog for Dallas Area Catholics - June 17, 2014

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9. skeinster - June 18, 2014

But back to the main point- continually puzzled by the apparent general surprise that a bishop, archbishop or cardinal who was 18 when the O.F. was promulgated, after being told for years that a wonderful new liturgy was in the works, isn’t a friend of the TLM.

Why would he appreciate the evidence that something he’s given his entire adult life to is something of a failure?

Why would anyone be shocked that someone who could share a table with President Obama would cavil at discouraging liturgy?

The question isn’t why isn’t he a friend, but why would be be?

Tantumblogo - June 18, 2014

I don’t know, it’s one thing to say “its not for me,” and another to actively seek to crush it.

And none of this explains the support given to the very problematic parishes.

It’s a very charitable interpretation, certainly. But as the exiled priest indicated, it seems being meek and charitable did not help that TLM center escape grave threat. The priest advocated a more assertive stance.

I have noticed much of this comes down to fundamental disposition. Some people are more comfortable with confrontation than others.

I guess those drawn to fighting will find out if we were horribly wrong at our judgment. Hopefully God will be merciful if our hearts are in the right place.

skeinster - June 18, 2014

Actually, I wasn’t being charitable, just realistic.

The “success” of all this may have to be just in the trying. If you’re dealing with a bishop who’s dead to shame, then no amount of public protest is going to move him. And our withholding his allowance may go completely unnoticed. And then what?

I’m truly not saying this to be discouraging- it has to be done. I’m just not sure how the “Catholic uprising” is supposed to be carried out, when the hierarchy, in the end, has the whip hand. And I worry for those who think this may be either simple, short or easy.

And you know me- I need to see the plan.

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11. Kurt - June 22, 2014

And today we again see as we have every year for quite some time a full page ad in the rabidly anti-Catholic, pro-gay and pro-abortion NY Times paid for by the Archdiocese of NY congratulating their Catholic HS grads. We are talking about tens of thousands of here of the faithful’s money going to the profits of this newspaper.

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