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Whither heresy? Pope begs forgiveness of Waldensian sect June 22, 2015

Posted by Tantumblogo in abdication of duty, Basics, disaster, Ecumenism, episcopate, error, General Catholic, Papa, pr stunts, sadness, scandals, secularism, self-serving, Society, the struggle for the Church.
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If one judged by the actions of two of the three most recent popes, one would have to conclude that opposing heresy even to the point of violence is always wrong, and that the Church has almost always erred in “doing so,” or supporting the secular power in doing so.  So was it wrong to repress a noxious heresy that posited only two Sacraments and led hundreds of thousands if not millions astray?  Or was it wrong to excommunicate prelates who explicitly rejected the Primacy of Peter, or who embraced any of a number of errors in protestantism?

Eliot Bougis claims this is a sterling example of everything wrong with Dignitatis Humanae.  I would have a hard time arguing with that:

Pope Francis met on Monday with members of the Waldensian movement, an ecclesial community which suffered persecution from Catholic authorities from the 12th to 17th centuries. He apologized for the Church’s “non-Christian attitudes and behavior” towards the Waldensians during that period.

“Reflecting on the history of our relations, we can only grieve in the face of strife and violence committed in the name of faith, and ask the Lord to give us us the grace to recognize we are all sinners, and to know how to forgive one another,” the Pope said June 22 at a Waldensian temple in Turin. [But such a view can only be posited if one believes in universal salvation, can it not?  Or nearly universal?  Otherwise, allowing souls to remain in errors that deny them salvation would be an evil even greater, far greater, than whatever violence committed in the name of the Church the Pope has in mind?]

“I ask forgiveness for the non-Christian – even inhuman – attitudes and behaviors which, through history, we have had against you. In Jesus Christ’s name, forgive us!” [This is incredibly dangerous.  So Pope Francis has now, rhetorically, at least, “excommunicated” popes, bishops, and Saints of the past for their part in repressing this heresy, among others.  So popes (and others) are allowed to excoriate previous popes, but we can’t critically examine the actions of the current one?  What is the time limit on the embargo of papal criticism?  Is it simply when the “old beliefs” fall out of fashion, then it’s open season?]

Monday’s encounter marks the first meeting between a Pope and the Waldensian community. Founded in Lyon in the late twelfth century, it is currently centered in Italy’s Piedmont region, which Pope Francis visited June 21-22.

The movement was founded by Peter Waldo, and embraced evangelical poverty and lay preaching, and believed there were only two sacraments. The movement’s ideas were condemned as early as the Third Lateran Council, in 1179. Beginning in the early 1200s, many Waldensians were executed on account of heresy. [By the secular authority, not the Church, do note.  The Church desires not the death of the sinner, but that he be converted and live. But when some persist in formal heresy for a protracted period of time, and do grave damage to souls, it is not entirely surprising that the secular authority would take this step in a rightly ordered concern for souls and to maintain the public order]

…….Pope Francis told the community, “On behalf of the Catholic Church, I ask for your forgiveness.” [I just cannot stand all these apologias.  They are meaningless PR events and I have a very difficult time not seeing them as simply self-serving grandstanding]

During the meeting, the Roman Pontiff praised  ecumenical advancements which have been made among those united in baptism and belief in Christ. [I wonder just how united in belief in Christ we really are, and is that not the core of the problem?]

“This tie is not based on simple human criteria, but on the radical sharing of founding experience of Christian life: the encounter with the love of God who reveals to us Jesus, and the transformative action of the Holy Spirit who helps us on life’s journey.” [But Holy Father, did you not also say that muslims have no need to convert and have their own path to salvation, separate from that through Jesus Christ?]

Pope Francis noted that this communion “is still on a journey, which, with prayer, with continual personal and communal conversion, and with the help of the theologians, [ominous?]  we hope, trusting in the action of the Holy Spirit, can become full and visible communion in truth and charity.”

He added that unity, as a fruit of the Holy Spirit, is not the same as uniformity. [Yes, but “unity” is also a heckuva lot more than shared baptism, isn’t it?  What happens when the first mortal sin is committed by a non-Catholic who has no conception of perfect contrition and no recourse to sacramental Confession?  Are they still “united?”]

“In fact, our brethren are united by a common origin but are not identical to one another.”

The Holy Father cited the scriptures, which speak of different charisms and gifts.

However, wars often break out when these do not accept these differences of others, he said. [They break out because words and beliefs MEAN THINGS, and wrong belief, the Church has known for 2000 years, in matters of Dogma is a matter affecting SALVATION.]

Pope Francis thanked God that the relationship between Catholics and Waldensians continue today to be ever more rooted in “mutual respect and fraternal charity.”……..

………There are various areas where the Church and the Waldensians could work together, he said, one being evangelization. [So how does that work…..when the Church and Waldensians hold mutually exclusive beliefs?  And why are we exerting so much effort over a tiny sect when millions fall away from the Church every year?]

………Pope Francis concluded by saying a“new way of unity begins with seeing the “grandeur of our shared faith and life in Christ and the Holy Spirit,” before taking into account the differences which exist.

How long, and to what extent, do we bask in this grandeur before we can take into account the differences? And how many souls get lost in the interim.  The Waldensians are a small sect.  In the grand scheme of things they don’t amount to much. But there are other, far larger sects that gobble up millions of souls a year -the longer we bask, the more souls fall away.

There is a horrible conceit that troubles our times, one that is rooted in modernism and libertine ideas inherited from the endarkenment.  That conceit is that we are oh-so-much smarter and more sensitive than our forebears.  I don’t think that is true at all.  I think in fact we are a lot dumber than our forebears.

In all these apologias – and Pope Francis is not the first pope to make them, though they were unheard of prior to 1980 – this conceit is, I think, operative.  Also operative is a kind of indifference that is really appalling.  What is being implied is that people in the way back were just really awful, bloodthirsty, war-mongering people, people who just wanted to kill others more or less for sport, or for power, or whatever base reason.  Of course, we are so much above that, we just have to condemn our lamentable forerunners in the Faith, including some notable popes and Saints (Saint Dominic was very involved in the crushing of the Albigensian heresy, including its more martial aspects).

But what if there really are – as the Church infallibly believes – errors that are so severe and noxious they literally cut you off from salvation if you knowingly profess them?  What if these errors are clever and pernicious and become widely accepted?  What if millions of people put their eternal souls in danger through these errors?  And if you really do, as the Church used to, at least until ~1958, believe that this life is short, and that eternity is forever, and that God really does condemn people to hell, and not just a few, but a whole bunch of them (the Exodus from Egypt being the type for our sojourn on earth, with only 2 out of 600,000 Israeli men making it to the Promised Land)…….what lengths would  you not go to prevent souls from falling into hell?  Given fervent belief in the danger of heresy and the reality of damnation (just as real a fact today as it was in 1179), could you not even reasonably conclude that in some situations, in order to prevent souls from suffering in hell for all eternity, it might even be preferable to put to death a relatively few, as St. Ephraem said earlier today, incorrigibly corrupted, heretical people to death in order to keep many more from falling into errors that will lead to their eternal destruction?

Well, that is exactly how the Church always thought and reasoned, until the last few years, anyways, before gaining the approval of the world trumped the good of souls in the post-conciliar Church.  Would anyone like to argue that point, that to a marked degree, the approval of the world is the guiding concern for most leadership in the Church over the past several decades, the good of souls be damned, so to speak?  And isn’t universal salvation, then, quite a handy little thing to trot out when explaining the dichotomy that exists between the behavior of the Church that was, and the Church that is?

In comparison to the belief and practice to the Church as it existed for over 1900 years, the modern ecumenical approach is so divorced from true charity for souls that it would have scandalized to their core so many pious souls, good priests, dutiful bishops, and great Saints of the past. Is the modern ecumenical movement really grounded in love for souls, or in love for the world?

I really should send a letter to Pope Francis asking him if I made a mistake in becoming Catholic.

But you know what, I don’t think I need to……..I’m quite sure I know what answer he would give, if he would respond.  Much more importantly, however, I know I did NOT make a mistake, it was the best thing I could have ever done, and I pray I shall never waver in that belief.

Comments

1. Baseballmom - June 22, 2015

He follows the lead of his American mentor, who began an apology tour in 2009.

2. MFG - June 23, 2015

Lost is the Church tradition to revere the ancients, Saints and patriarchs because they were closer to Christ, Noah, and Adam. Instead of a humble reverence toward the Church of antiquity we arrogantly presume the current Church is the best and the future will be even better-no apologies here. The past is embarrassing and we need to apologize.

3. Brian - June 23, 2015

Can someone please explain to me why I should not take the Pope’s advice and return to my Protestant roots and reconcile with my family in the Non-Denominational church I was born into? I miss them. That sounds quite appealing right now.

My Priest last Sunday scolded me for being angry at the heresy emanating from Rome. And I thought, well, it sure would be a lot easier NOT to drive an hour to this Parish every Sunday, since Pope Francis despises the Latin Mass of 1962, urgently calls for its end, and venerates the denomination the rest of my family attends.

If I were to follow my Priest’s advice, and follow the direction of the current Pope, I ask, why not leave? That is what Pope Francis is urging the Faithful to do. I see almost no one in the Church hierarchy who can propose a coherent reason to contradict the Pope’s clear wish for Christians like me to leave.

catholicguy - June 23, 2015

We stay Catholic for Our Lord, even if a great part of the hierarchy doesn’t, or compromises their faith. You know that Protestantism is a false reductionist substitute religion.
We have Our Lord in the Eucharist. If the pope’s actions scandalize you to that extent, do yourself a favor and take a break from the blogs and news. I do it every once in a while.
Read the lives of the Saints. Read St. Alphonsus Ligouri’s Conformity to the Will of God. I promise you, it will help.

Brian - June 23, 2015

“Read the lives of the Saints. Read St. Alphonsus Ligouri’s Conformity to the Will of God”

Great advice, and I will do so. Just purchased the Kindle version and will read it alongside my current reflectionson Padre Pio.

Ann Malley - June 23, 2015

If your priest scolded you, you should step back an analyze the situation of whether or not your priest has a full grasp on the Faith. He may offer the TLM, but that doesn’t mean that he is/was formed in a solid Catholic seminary.

Catholics are obliged to obey lawful authority in all matters except those which are sinful. So following the current leadership into heresy is no solution or path toward salvation.

Also keep in mind that your priest may likely be just as discombobulated as you are in attempting to reconcile the reality that the individual occupying the see of Peter seems unconcerned about his primary job. But hey, we’ve all been in jobs where the leadership wasn’t quite what it should be. In such cases, look to the perennial charter statement and go with that.

As to the relatives, just don’t get into arguments with them. Keep the subject of limits. Would you give up being a US Citizen because Obama is an embarrassment? Try thinking long term and cut yourself some slack. If you’re new to the Faith, trust in that grace that led you there and rely on that grace to keep you there. Rely on that grace to stave off the angry relatives or provide answers when you cannot and/or are scandalized by bogus leadership.

Remember always that Christ is in your boat – perhaps asleep as the storm rages – but there nonetheless.

God bless

LaGallina - June 23, 2015

Satan is fighting like crazy to destroy us. (See Pope Leo XIII’s vision.) If this weren’t the One, True, Faith, he would not be working so hard to destroy It. He knows he is running out of time so he is pulling out all the stops!

I think most serious Trads have seen this coming for a loooong time — since Vatican 2. Face it, we have been heading in this direction since then. Francis the First has just speeded things up a lot. The hierarchy lost the faith 50 years ago. We have to hang onto the True Faith with or without them.

And maybe we should take those prophesies seriously about Rome falling into apostasy. There is really no other way to make sense of all this. Just DONT GIVE UP THE FAITH!

I was raised Protestant too. The past 50 years of the post-Vatican 2 church has been one long exercise in how to be more Protestant. But as Catholics we need to cling to Traditional Catholic teachings — come hell or high water!! There is no other option. There is no other church with real history. There is no church which even tries to claim that it contains all truth. All other Christian religions are a rebellion against true Catholic teaching.

If the Pope rebels against the One, True Faith, it doesn’t mean you should too!

This is painful. We are all suffering. It hurts every time Francis makes yet another anti-Catholic statement. Let’s unite our suffering with the suffering of Our Lord. Let us offer it up to Him in reparation for the indifference and hatred the world has for Him. If nothing else, this torment that we are going through is proof that Satan is real and the Catholic Church is his no. 1 enemy.

4. catholicguy - June 23, 2015

Did you see this?
http://remnantnewspaper.com/web/index.php/articles/item/1808-john-huss-a-reformer-of-the-church-or-destroyer-of-souls

Looks like Francis is continuing the globe trotting apology tour of Pope John Paul II. I think that’s called the hermeneutic of ecumenical continuity.

kimzef2015 - June 23, 2015

In the spirit of John Huss, let’s all reject the visible head of the Church.

Tantumblogo - June 23, 2015

That’s pretty good.

5. Woody - June 23, 2015

Brian, you are justified in your concern but don’t give in to half truths. You became a Catholic (with a capital C) because you found the whole truth. I don’t know what to tell you about Pope Francis. You and I and many others are in this big ship that is getting thrown about on the sea. I don’t understand what the captain is doing but I’m not going to abandon ship because this is THE SHIP that will get us to heaven. We are nauseous, sea sick, disoriented. No matter what the captain does, he can’t sink the ship. It may be a very turbulent time on the ship, but we will survive. Hang in there. And pray that the captain steers the ship to calmer waters.

Brian - June 23, 2015

The primary focus of this Pope has been to advocate for my previous religious home and against the conversion I made out of it. That is just a fact; a full truth. I have gone through years of painful conversion through Penance to overcome my previous faith’s permission to sin and am called a hypocrite by Pope Francis for doing so. I have sacrificed much to raise my family under the Traditional Latin Mass, and that is the ONE faithful expression CONDEMNED by the Pope.

You need to understand, I have committed the heart of my family to this path, and it is the one path that is condemned, not just by the Pope, but the Hierarchy. And somehow, as a father, I am supposed to make sense of all this to my wife and children as I say one thing and the Church says something else. It’s not like I have a wealth of experience to fall back on in this time of trial, you know. I am angry about this and I expect the Fathers of Christ’s Body to be angry as well, not confused and disoriented.

That is the full truth of my situation, (as a small fish among a school of hundreds of millions).

Primo / Cousin - June 23, 2015

Brian,

If you need to hide from the news and from the reality to keep your faith, you’re a Hegelian Catholic. Do you know what it means? Hegel said: “if the facts contradict my theory, the worse for the facts”. My friend, if it’s a plain truth that the real and the concrete Pope isn’t working like your theoretical Pope, your theory is a fallacy.

I would recommend you to seek for the Orthodoxy, but first you should, in any case, to seek for a reconciliation with your relatives. A religion which radically separates you from your relatives isn’t a healthy religion. See for yourself. Traditional Catholics are scolding the Pope because this Pope doesn’t condone with violence. Violence which would include members of your own Protestant family if we had lived in other conditions, apropos. Is it normal? Or is it abnormal only when Muslims are involved? You’re a grown man, be smart!

kimzef2015 - June 23, 2015

I hear you, Brian. I broke my dear mother’s heart leaving the Southern Baptist church.

The simple truth is we are simply more Catholic than the pope. We actually try to conform our hearts and minds to the belief that this is the one, holy, catholic and apostolic faith. Francis and friends do not; yet they use the power of their positions as apostolic successors to spew heresies of all kinds.

It is all very strange.

Sometimes I wonder if the new Mass and the new ordination rite is valid. Maybe the abomination of desolation did begin with Vatican 2. I try to get to Confession and a TLM once a month with a priest ordained in the old rite. Matters not to me if it’s SSPX or sedevacantist.

TG - June 23, 2015

I’ve been reading an old book from 1947 called “Of Sacrifice and Sacraments”, explaining the sacraments and the Mass. It’s been quite informative and it’s orthodox. He has a chapter on the problem with participation in the Mass. At the time he wrote the book, there was only the Latin mass. He describes how people don’t really participate in the Mass. Many people pray the rosary or pray their novenas while Mass is going on. (As a kid I recall seeing older women pray the rosary at the Latin mass.) This priest said it had to do because they didn’t know Latin and could not participate. He goes on to describe the Mass of St. Gregory the Great in the 6th century. What he describes is the NO Mass. He said people came in a procession, deacons and others read scripture, etc. The Mass was also in the language of the people (I was shocked.) This priest goes on to say that the Latin Mass got started in the middle ages and the use of Latin got started by monks. It’s a very interesting book. I thought to myself I bet he was happy after Vatican II. (I can’t recall right now the author’s name.)

Ann Malley - June 23, 2015

The fact that this Pope seems to be rejecting the Catholic Faith is the disappointment, Primo. As for separation from relatives, Our Lord states that there would be division amid families.

Catholics, not just those branded ‘traditional’, are not scolding the Pope, but rather questioning his leadership abilities because he seems intent on unhinging himself from what the Church actually teaches.

Let’s not embrace the Anti-Catholic rhetoric that would make the Pope out to be a living oracle whose every move, word is greater than the Gospel. Otherwise the Pope becomes the Steward of Gondor – screaming at the people to flee for their mortal lives when danger swarms. Not standing up and defending the Kingdom.

c matt - June 23, 2015

Why orthodoxy? The folks that deny Christ’s teaching on indissolubility of marriage by giving you one Mulligan? Brian, i don’t care for many of this pope’s ruminations on various topics, but there is only one Church founded by Christ, and it’s the Catholic Church and no other. This is why the true church reflects true marriage – for better or worse. Can’t recall who said it but he was right – sometimes we are called to suffer for the Church and sometimes from it. Our lot is the latter.

Byzcat - June 24, 2015

Primo, I hate to say it but you are way off base. We are Catholic because we love Christ and are commanded to do His will. “He who loves father or mother…more than me is not worthy of me.” Your advice is bad. What you are saying is not in a spirit of charity but smells of the deceiver. There are many examples of men and women in the Church who left their families and their religion and became saints. A contemporary example is St. Theresa Benedicta of the Cross (Edith Stein). We have a Pope who sows confusion every time he opens his mouth. The best thing to do is to ignore him and continue in the true faith, not the neo-modernist, protestant blather that regularly spews from his mouth.

6. Brian - June 23, 2015

To the host of this blog, and his readers, I apologize for my rants yesterday. I won’t be back.

Ann Malley - June 23, 2015

Brian, you don’t sound like you’re ranting to me. I’m in a similar situation – a very difficult one. That is why the advice to hunker down with the lives of the Saints is such a gem. We’re told in the Gospel not to be disturbed by stories and news, etc.

Stand firm in what you have come to understand is the Truth, the fullness of it. The example of calm, steadfast leadership you give your family is invaluable. Not only on a religious level, either, but in every way as bad leaders abound. Children need to learn via example that compromising core truth for the sake of ‘getting along’ is not helping anyone.

Be kind. Be resolute. Be unwavering. You have received abundant grace to see. Don’t choose to be blind just because those in leadership roles have decided on the grander scale that driving the extra hour to Church and getting guff from the relatives is too hard.

I pray God to bless you and Our Lady to support you in your struggles.

Tantumblogo - June 23, 2015

Sorry if I precipitated some angst. My intent was not so much to cause other people problems with their faith, as it was to express the scandal I feel with respect to my own conversion. I am the only Catholic in my family. All the rest of my family is protestant and has been going back hundreds of years. But few of those at least in the past 3-4 generations were really committed, on fire types. My paternal grandfather, for instance, went to church maybe once a month. My family growing up did better much of the time, but not always. My last few years of high school and throughout college I essentially never went to church.

But nevertheless, my conversion has been a source of some discord, as has this blog. And so I feel a certain amount of scandal in seeing the Holy Father repeatedly make statements that at the very least strongly imply that other faiths are at least nearly equivalent, if not the full equivalent, of Catholicism. And that applies not just to separated sects but other religions as well. I really do believe that were I by some means able to press the Holy Father on this point, he would have a hard time saying I did the right thing in joining the Catholic Church, which I find heart-breaking and troubling beyond measure.

How much more difficult is it already to convert those outside the Church? I have directly experienced the scandal very conservative protestants feel at this pontiff, people who recognize the deficiencies in their own “communion” and who were at least somewhat disposed to the Catholic Church, who now no longer know what the Church believes. Each and every one of these instances is an incalculable loss to the souls themselves and the Church as a whole, and I fear there are more and more of them.

I do not bear you any ill will. I am not overly upset with your comments. They went farther than I would but I think I understand where you are coming from. But if you feel you need to withdraw from news on the Pope to keep your faith whole then by all means do so. But don’t feel that I feel you crossed some dread line that means you are not welcome here. Not the case at all.

I will strive to be more careful in future. I have a certain ability to compartmentalize my feelings (a hangover, if you will, from my drug days) on these matters and while I can express scandal I can keep a core – I don’t know how to express it, and I don’t know how I do it – of my being unaffected by this kind of thing. But others may not have that ability.

Ann Malley - June 23, 2015

Personally, I find the candid conversation on this blog refreshing. As I also find the commentary, “How can I explain myself to my non-Catholic relatives who are pressuring me, etc, when the Pope is doing x and/or y.”

We *all* must learn to compartmentalize if it doesn’t come naturally. So whereas some may be overwhelmed by discussion of Vatican scandal, discussion is what needs to occur. (Although being overwhelmed is natural, too, especially for the newly baptized, head of family, etc.) Not only to tease out personal opinion (even a Pope’s) from what the Faith requires, but to understand that doing as much is part and parcel of being a solid Catholic.

My family and I are pretty much our own corner of Traditional Catholicism in the extended circle of relations. One faction is wholly anti-Catholic/atheist, others evangelical, and others dyed-in-the-wool Novus Ordo mentality of constant change – whatever happens to be the offering of a certain pontificate. (They associate being Catholic with doing whatever the Pope says regardless of whether or not what the Pope is advocating is, in fact, Catholic.)

So please, everyone, don’t shy away from posting and if anyone needs a breather, take one. The idea of pulling back to read the lives of the Saints isn’t so much a sign of weak faith, but rather solid advice to look at others who had to deal with weak leadership etc and did so successfully.

Tantumblogo - June 23, 2015

” The idea of pulling back to read the lives of the Saints isn’t so much a sign of weak faith, but rather solid advice to look at others who had to deal with weak leadership etc and did so successfully.”

Great comment overall. But I especially appreciate the last quote. I don’t think it’s ever a bad time to read the Saints! But when one is particularly troubled or reeling from scandal, I would say it’s not just a good idea but necessary. Also, read a good Catholic Bible, like Douay Reims.

7. kimzef2015 - June 23, 2015

A few priests, Fr. Paul Kramer of the Fatima Apostolate being the loudest voice, claim that Benedict is still pope and that Francis’ election was invalid for several reasons. When I attend a Vat 2 church I just utter Benedict when the priest says Francis. Sounds nutty but makes me feel better.

8. kimzef2015 - June 23, 2015

One more thing, Brian, be glad he wasn’t pope when you felt yourself drawn to the Church. Like me, you probably wouldn’t have converted if he had been pope then.

Tim - June 23, 2015

There is too much emphasis on who the pope is…..granted some are better than others. The decision to convert to the True Church should be based on Catholic Truth, not who is holding what office at any particular time. When it gets right down to it your salvation does not depend on who the pope is, it depends on our own particular judgements. God will give us the graces to attain salvation despite the good works or the follies of Church leadership. While having a holy and orthodox pope can help, it is not required. There were plenty of souls condemned during the reign of Pope St. Pius X.

9. TG - June 23, 2015

“I have directly experienced the scandal very conservative protestants feel at this pontiff, people who recognize the deficiencies in their own “communion” and who were at least somewhat disposed to the Catholic Church, who now no longer know what the Church believes. Each and every one of these instances is an incalculable loss to the souls themselves and the Church as a whole, and I fear there are more and more of them. ” – this is what I’ve experienced also.

Ann Malley - June 23, 2015

Much of the current Vatican positioning seems based on false advertisement. This is never a good strategy especially when what one is supposed to be promoting is ‘the’ Truth.

If only we could have more faith in Him, that is the Truth, instead of all the machinations of politicking.

10. Don - June 23, 2015

Ann Malley said:

” He may offer the TLM, but that doesn’t mean that he is/was formed in a solid Catholic seminary. ”

Bingo! There are too many who assume TLM means orthodoxy, and the NO means anything but. Yet the problems of modernism crept in when all Masses were TLM. Much more than an adherence to TLM is required. If people prefer TLM, fine, but do not look askance at those who are fine with properly said NO Masses.

It is the formation in seminary that matters.

Tantumblogo - June 23, 2015

Oh surely. It’s more than just the TLM that makes a priest or parish orthodox, but it’s a very good sign. But on the converse, there are some outstanding priests who do not offer the TLM, including one in this Diocese of Dallas. Of course, he doesn’t offer the TLM because he is barred from doing so by the bishop, but that’s another story.

I really advise people to seek out traditional communities (IBP, ICRSS, FSSP, some would say SSPX, etc) if they at all can. Those are the safest bets. TLMs offered by regular diocesan priests are a mixed bag, as are the priests. Some are great, others not so much.

Byzcat - June 24, 2015

If the parish priest is a Saint, his people will be holy;
If the priest is holy, but not yet a Saint, his people will be good;
If he is good, his people will be lukewarm,
and if he is lukewarm, his parishioners will be bad.
And if the priest himself is bad, his people will go to Hell.

TG - June 24, 2015

I’ve known some good priests who just say the NO. They probably don’t know Latin.

11. Don - June 23, 2015

The science adviser chosen for this encyclical, Laudato Si’, has, sadly, shown that Francis has very poor judgment. Very poor. Not just the off-the-cuff stuff Francis is all too well known for by now.

The man, the adviser, Hans Schellnhuber, is an open atheist, and believes there are far too many people on the Earth (I believe he has stated 1 billion is about the right number). Francis, by using this man’s advice for his encyclical, has given great scandal.

https://stream.org/scientific-pantheist-who-advises-pope-francis/

Our Lady of Fatima, pray for us.

JMJ

kimzef2015 - June 23, 2015

Poor judgement? Surely you jest.
Francis knows exactly who he is employing. Besides, in his church atheists who follow their consciences go to heaven.

Schellnhuber will have far less to answer for at the day of judgement than Francis and friends.

12. REX - June 23, 2015

I can’t help but recommending the reading of the book: “Liberalism is a sin” by Father Sardá and Salvany. It will give you many clues to understand what’s happening in the Church since the CVII.

I will leave this comment box with a quote from the 70′s very telling of our current set of events. Note: The “Akas” are from me:

“Please take into consideration that there are only few voices that speak up with courage to stop this divisiveness. Some talk about unity but then let the wolves scatter the sheep, talk about peace and then introduce in the Church even from official departments, the Marxist categories of Class Struggle (aka rich vs poor?) or the materialistic analysis of social events (aka earthbound analysis of global warming?), talk about freeing the Church from any temporal power and they don’t spare any sympathies to those who oppress the consciences (aka abortion and sodo-rights enforced by the UN?), talk about seeking a more deep Christian life and they allow any kind of abuses on liturgical matters and the administration of the sacraments, without any public authority (from the church) cutting off the abuses, sometimes truly sacrileges, in liturgical matters. (Aka beach ball in the altar?), finally they talk about respecting the dignity of the human life and in doing so, they discriminate the faithful employing tactics used to create political divisions.”

(Letter from St. Josemaria Escrivá de Balaguer in Rome, 3-28-1973)

Tantumblogo - June 23, 2015

I’ve read it! Great book.

BTW, “REX,” if you have any good works on Spanish Saints and Spanish history that have been translated into English you could recommend I would love to see them. I just got a really good book on the first half of the Reconquista from 745 – ~1100 that was written by an English scholar back in 1889. Good book, but I prefer Spanish sources if possible. Not many have been translated into English, though, and though I can read Spanish, it tires me to do so at book length. I’d prefer English if possible.

If you have any thoughts, I’d be very pleased to see what you have to say.

Tim Thunell - June 23, 2015

Agreed!!!! It is an excellent book and should be required reading in all seminaries.(Excuse me for indulging in a fantasy)

REX - June 23, 2015

Absolutely! I can help with that. In the meantime, I recommend anything you can get from Frederick Willhelmsen.

13. Gary - June 23, 2015

Didn’t Jesus say that when he returns, will he find any faith ( meaning real faith in the truth )? It’s getting watered down steadily.

14. Margaret Costello - June 27, 2015

Well done post. Yes, the current Pope (and recent Popes) are humanists and are unable to see the full, spiritual, immortal picture. Heresy is spiritual murder, it is ETERNAL murder. We put people to death for physical murder of innocent people. Why not put people to death for the attempted ETERNAL murder of someone? They get full trials, ample time to repent, have been taught the truth and know it and yet A) still reject it B) go around promoting lies that murder people.

Scripture was very clear in that the state has the right of the sword. And there is no greater evil than eternal murder. Let alone the purgatorial affects of the punishment for the perpetrator and showing the common people you mean business. How many hundreds of millions fall into hell b/c we don’t bother putting our money where our mouth is?

Again, well done post. The V2 popes have been a nightmare in apologizing for trying to SAVE souls and protect people from eternal murderers. Lord have mercy on them and us:+) God bless~


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