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How can ecumenism be reconciled with St. Paul and the entire pre-conciliar Magisterium? February 3, 2016

Posted by Tantumblogo in abdication of duty, Basics, catachesis, different religion, disaster, Ecumenism, episcopate, error, General Catholic, horror, Papa, Revolution, scandals, secularism, self-serving, Society, suicide, the struggle for the Church.

Older Catholics will tell you, they remember a day when it was clearly taught that to even step foot in a protestant church was a mortal sin.  Participating in the kind of “joint ecumenical service” that Francis – and he is not the first post-conciliar pope to do so – would have been utterly unthinkable.  The mind of  the Church was guided by St. Paul’s 2nd Letter to the Corinthians:

Bear not the yoke together with unbelievers. For what participation hath justice with injustice? Or what fellowship hath light with darkness?

 And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath the faithful with the unbeliever?

And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? *For you are the temple of the living God: as God saith: **I will dwell in them, and walk among them, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Wherefore, go out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing:

Pope Pius XI taught that Catholics were forbidden to engage in liturgical celebrations with protestants, and in doing so he was only reiterating what the Church had clearly taught for some 350 years.  The post-conciliar Church has most frequently tried to pretend that protestants and Catholics both belong to some “invisible church” consisting of “believers” (usually reduced to a shared baptism), but this kind of thinking was rejected by numerous pre-conciliar popes.  Thus very clear statements such as those by St. Paul, which served as justification for “fundamentalists” like Saint Athanasius to have no contact with, and to give no recognition to, even the heretical Arian “Catholics” of his day.  St. Basil stated that the faithful should even go into the desert to offer Mass, rather than participate in the liturgies of the heretics of those days.

And yet here we are, 2000 years later, after a completely novel council, the first ever in the history of the Church to proclaim no dogma and declare no anathemas, with a radically changed mindset, a mindset that much more plays to worldly thinking and approval than to the constant belief and practice of the faith.

50 years ago, in the immediate wake of Vatican II, there was a great outburst of ecumenical efforts.  Thank God, those efforts largely subsided under the previous two pontificates (obviously, there were some scandalous exceptions, like Assisi), but they have come roaring back under Francis and especially in this run up to the 500th anniversary of the outbreak of the protestant heresy cum revolution.  It must be remembered that many leading lights at Vatican II were scandalous in their acceptance of protestant belief, from Congar to Bugnini, who felt that in many cases the protestants had got in more right than the early Church Fathers directly informed by the Apostles.  Congar reverenced Luther greatly, and Bugnini desired to create a Mass so bowdlerized of Catholic content that it would never be offensive to protestants.

Michael Matt and Christopher Ferrara have a valuable video on this subject below.  I found it providential that I read a biblical verse with a note that pointed me to II Cor vi:14-17 just hours before I saw this video show up in my Youtube feed.  I especially like the early reference Matt makes to St. Thomas More and his excoriation of protestants for loathing order and seeking to create a society based on disorder and the triumph of the will (which, perhaps, makes subsequent German history rather less than surprising).

Some more important points regarding the below.  I have already reported on the disturbingly pro-protestant nature of elements of this joint “liturgy” composed by uber-liberal Catholics in the Congregation for Christian Unity and the Lutheran World Federation. As Matt notes below, this Federation is exceedingly modernist/liberal in and of itself, and is rejected by more conservative Lutheran bodies like the Missouri Synod.  So what this amounts to is a self-congratulatory confab of progressives in the two bodies patting themselves on the back for their progressive beliefs.  But such has been the practical nature of the ecumenical movement since its inception, it’s far more about confirming progressives in their beliefs than it is concern for souls, arriving at the truth, or, most especially, conversion:

Is it too much saying that Francis is trying to destroy the Church, or complete its destruction?  As I said, these kinds of things have gone on for years, though not always with such fanfare, with such high-level participants, or with as much significance as the quincentenary portends.

Having said all that, I plan, for a time, to start ignoring the many problematic statements emanating from the Vatican, and limit myself to discussion/analysis of actions.  At this point, I think we, who pray we adhere to what the Church has always believed, know who and what this man is.  We know his penchant for highly destructive rhetoric.  To some degree, reporting on that is feeling like repetitive non-news (water is wet), and I also need to do so to preserve my own faith and sanity.  This planned confab with Lutheran heretics, and modernist ones at that, is a concrete act of such monumental significance that it does merit a good deal of coverage.  I pray somehow, by some miracle, there may be an end to all this, but I won’t hold my breath.

I think it important to stress that the ecumenical/interreligious dialogue movements are radically counter to the Church’s pre-conciliar approach, and serve as one of the prime indicators that the Council, no matter what was intended (those arguments are endless, and quite possibly were intended to be), ushered in an era where practice, and belief, was irreconcilable with the Catholic ethos before 1962.  That’s the take-home point.


1. Baseballmom - February 4, 2016

I DO recall the days of looking at a Protestant church and wondering “what went on in there”…. Whole different world. Francis cannot destroy the Church, he can try, but he will fail. She may be a much smaller Church, but She will prevail.

2. Xopher - February 4, 2016

I don’t like to do this to your blog, Tantum, so if you see this and don’t like the cut-and-paste, maybe moderate out my comment and toss it in a post if, in your wise discretion, you see fit to so do on this, your most elegant blog…St. Ignatius echoes St. Paul’s sentiments in his Epistle to the Philadelphians in Ad 107:

Chapter 2: Maintain union with the bishop (not Protestant ministers)

Wherefore, as children of light and truth, flee from division and wicked doctrines; but where the shepherd is, there follow as sheep. For there are many wolves that appear worthy of credit, who, by means of a pernicious pleasure, carry captive 2 Timothy 3:6 those that are running towards God; but in your unity they shall have no place.

Chapter 3. Avoid schismatics (such as…Protestants?)

Keep yourselves from those evil plants which Jesus Christ does not tend, because they are not the planting of the Father. Not that I have found any division among you, but exceeding purity. For as many as are of God and of Jesus Christ are also with the bishop. And as many as shall, in the exercise of repentance, return into the unity of the Church, these, too, shall belong to God, that they may live according to Jesus Christ. Do not err, my brethren. If any man follows him that makes a schism in the Church, he shall not inherit the kingdom of God. If any one walks according to a strange opinion, he agrees not with the passion [of Christ.].

Chapter 4. Have but one Eucharist, etc (Protestants don’t have it)

Take heed, then, to have but one Eucharist. For there is one flesh of our Lord Jesus Christ, and one cup to [show forth ] the unity of His blood; one altar; as there is one bishop, along with the presbytery and deacons, my fellow-servants: that so, whatsoever you do, you may do it according to [the will of] God.

(Also, this…)

Chapter 6. Do not accept Judaism (hmm…)

But if any one preach the Jewish law unto you, listen not to him. For it is better to hearken to Christian doctrine from a man who has been circumcised, than to Judaism from one uncircumcised. But if either of such persons do not speak concerning Jesus Christ, they are in my judgment but as monuments and sepulchres of the dead, upon which are written only the names of men. Flee therefore the wicked devices and snares of the prince of this world, lest at any time being conquered by his artifices, grow weak in your love. But be all joined together with an undivided heart…

(…and so on. The point is to maintain unity, but not by leaving communion “with the bishop”, that is, with the Church. They who teach heresy and schism are separate by their own choice, and the way to unity is NOT to appease them or sacrifice the truth to obtain unity for unity’s sake…(

Chapter 8…”For where there is division and wrath, God does not dwell. To all them that repent, the Lord grants forgiveness, if they turn in penitence to the unity of God, and to communion with the bishop. “

Tantumblogo - February 4, 2016

Thanks Xopher. Really good material, sorry it got delayed. I think length may have been a factor.

3. Claire - February 4, 2016

Protestants make up their own reality. Ecumenists do the same: they have to. Ecumenism (the current form) and inter-faith dialogue are very simply opposed to truth. Either another religion (which one?) is the right one and has all truth or another non-Catholic sect (which one?) is right and has all truth or the Catholic Church is right and has all truth. Otherwise we would have to assume that more than one (how many?) religion or non-Catholic sect would be the true faith even though they oppose one another in belief and practice. That is insane.

The other alternatives are that there is no objective truth or that there is objective truth but who cares? It doesn’t matter. Or possibly that our God did not care enough about us to tell us definitively what we need to know to love Him, serve Him and be happy with Him in this life and in the next.Or else — maybe He believes lots of opposing things at the same time? Maybe confusion and chaos is part of His character? And is it even LIKELY that Almighty God would care so little about people that He makes every one of us have to figure it all out for ourselves and try to piece together a religion that is true and pleases Him (which is exactly what sola scriptura and private interpretation amount to)? So what is the protestant’s God really like? If a person accepts that God IS truth and goes on from there…what do you get? Could it possibly be the protestant chaos? Is that even possible?

I’m a convert and no theologian but these things are what I have to tell my protestant husband. Protestant beliefs mess with God’s character and they mess with reality. Since Pope F. has been pope his conversion does not seem likely. What he sees and what I tell him or give him to read are like putting same ends of two magnets close to one another.

Sorry for the long post. I appreciate the blog and read it often.

Baseballmom - February 4, 2016

Claire, I continue to pray for my Protestant husband (who accepts all the teachings of the Church on marriage but after 42 years has not converted) and I will add yours to my prayers.

4. Baseballmom - February 4, 2016

It does seem I have more in common with the Missouri Synod Lutheran faculty at my son’s school than I have with most Catholics. It is the primary reason he attends that school instead of the so called Catholic School.

5. Mac Mccay - February 8, 2016

Great  – mac, thanks

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