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Francis declares Clear Doctrinal Definitions Heretical June 10, 2016

Posted by Tantumblogo in abdication of duty, Abortion, different religion, error, Francis, General Catholic, Revolution, scandals, secularism, self-serving, suicide, the struggle for the Church.
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How can one respond to this very bold declaration from the Bishop of Rome, Francis, in declaring clear doctrinal definitions to be the stuff of heresy?  My first reaction is that this is a rhetorical excommunication of the entire pre-Franciscan Magisterium.  And not for the first time, mind you!

As Rorate notes, this declaration stands in irreformable contrast to the declarations of even the post-conciliar popes (let alone their predecessors).  That is to say, only one or the other can be right – either Francis is right, and the Church must jettison doctrinal definitions for the sake of the leftist cause “good” of souls, or the entire pre-conciliar Magisterium is right.

I know where my money will lay:

Francis……by qualifying as “heretical” a rejection of the “Doctrine of the Ideal” as well as any affirmation of the absoluteness of moral prohibitions (‘or this or nothing’).

“This (is the) healthy realism of the Catholic Church: the Church never teaches us ‘or this or that.’ That is not Catholic. The Church says to us: ‘this and that.’ [Fornication AND Sodomy!  Marriage AND Adultery!] ‘Strive for perfectionism: reconcile with your brother. Do not insult him. Love him. And if there is a problem, at the very least settle your differences so that war doesn’t break out.’ This (is) the healthy realism of Catholicism. It is not Catholic (to say) ‘or this or nothing:’  This is not Catholic, this is heretical. Jesus always knows how to accompany us, he gives us the ideal, he accompanies us towards the ideal, He frees us from the chains of the laws’ rigidity and tells us: ‘But do that up to the point that you are capable.’ And he understands us very well. He is our Lord and this is what he teaches us.”

Francis
Homily at Santa MartaJune 9, 2016

Not Cathoilc, eh?  But what of those on the left hand and right hand, or “If you do not eat My Flesh and drink My Blood you do not have life within you?”  What about “go and sin no more,” and “let them be as a heathen and publican.”

It’s not some man-made law of the Church that Francis is contradicting; it is Jesus Christ Himself.

The only way I can comprehend that he can mentally justify his stance, is if he is a modernist who believes basically all of Scripture is just an ex post facto creation of men with little or no relation to the supernatural.  Thus, it’s pick and choose (which correlates with his love for protestants) and will to power.

Rorate has the countervailing quotes from John Paul II, which I recommend reading for completeness.

Comments

1. virtuouscitizenship - June 10, 2016

Think about the level of power you have if you can say, and then be the one for any future issue or act to say, and the only one so empowered to say this is and this is not, at the same time, a sin? This is and this is not at the same time an act of virtue? If you thus have power over truth itself, since truth has no limits, since you are the one with the power to assert this, your power has no limits, and you are more powerful than God Himself. It will not be for you and me to announce to what act the NonNonCon principle applies, this is now solely Bergoglio’s Power, and it includes the power to deny Scripture, Tradition, Dogma, Canon Law, and every paragraph of the Catechism. The “NonNonCon Principle” – a thing can simultaneously be and not be. The Keeper Of The NonNonCon Principle has more power than an infallible pontiff, because The Keeper can declare that something is both infallible and it is not. Guy McClung, San Antonio TX

2. c matt - June 10, 2016

Don’t know what the context was for the remarks, or if that would even help. From the reference to “at least settle your differences so that war does not break out” he may be trying to say that on prudential/non-binding things, secular things like land/territorial disputes and negotiations, ultimatums may be counter-productive. I don’t know, he may mean that, AND that Catholicism has no moral absolutes.

Barbara Hvilivitzky - June 13, 2016

If this is from one of Pope Francis’ daily sermons it is just blather. It appears to me that when Francis has a few moments to fill he will fill those moments with the first thing that comes into his head. At least that’s what it sounds like from out here.

3. Margaret Costello - June 10, 2016

Our Lord never “accompanied” unrepentant mortal sinners. He said that people don’t listen to the Gospel you can leave them and shake the dust off your feet as you go. St. Paul in 1st Corinthians 5 says to remove the unrepentant sinner from the community. Whatever happened to the parable/story where Our Lord says people give all kinds of excuses why they don’t follow Him…”first let me bury my father”…”let the dead bury the dead, says Our Lord.”

I wonder if Pope Francis reads the New Testament at all or is the edited lectionary that erases all the hard stuff the only thing he has heard these past 40 years?

God bless~

Baseballmom - June 10, 2016

Wait, Margaret… Are you saying that Our Lord and St. Paul said what they meant and meant what they said…. Wow! Radical!😉

Tim - June 11, 2016

“Wow! Radical!😉”
No, in today’s Church environment the proper term is “schismatic”!!!

Baseballmom - June 11, 2016

Oh Tim, I thought I was a heretic? So, I am a heretic AND a schismatic? Alrighty then… As they say these days… It is what it is….

Tim - June 11, 2016

I wasn’t calling you a schismatic. I was joking that to believe that Our Lord and St. Paul saying what they meaning what they say is considered a schismatic belief by most in the “church of nice.” Besides I’m the president of the schismatic AND heretic club and I can’t find your name in our membership!

Baseballmom - June 11, 2016

Well you need to check that list a bit closer Tim… I am certain you will find my name in your membership😉
In all seriousness, I actually am on a list of “persons of interest” if there is any criminal activity at the PP abortion mill that I sidewalk counseled at for about 20 years… Yep, my son-in-law, who was in law enforcement at the time, ran a check…. And sure enough, there I was! A badge of honor to be sure… So, if I am not on your membership please do add me😉

4. Peter - June 11, 2016

How can we understand what he says, “or this or that,” “this and that”…what does that even mean? Why does he babble so? So many words with so little meaning.

5. RKF - June 11, 2016

God gave Saint Joan of Arc at 17 years old the gifts and ability to go to war to save the First Daughter of the Church!!! Saint Joan of Arc pray for us!!!

6. Camper - June 11, 2016

He’s a heretic and if you stay in communion with him, you are contributing to heresy.

Peter - June 11, 2016

you’re saying that faithful Catholics should not be in communion with the Pope? Then what would you recommend?

Camper - June 13, 2016

The SSPX or maybe the sedevacantists. But the Ecclesia Dei communities are part of the problem. I know they mostly disagree with Vatican II – but by taking the Holy Eucharist in communion with Rome, you are declaring that you agree with everything that is in Vatican II. Lumen Gentium from Vatican II was heretical – it dethrones Christ the King. It declares that a Catholic government should not ban Protestant congregations that it can successfully ban. This is not love of religious liberty, but is religious indifferentism, as the SSPX teaches.
If you are American, then your Ecclesia Dei dollars pay for the destruction of your country because 1) You are contributing to your ordinary who has to commit towards the pro-unlimited immigration agenda of the horrible Vatican II American bishops and 2) You are contributing to Peter’s pence which contributes to the ruinous demagoguery of Bergoglio.
By the way, I am really starting to think a lot less of the Ecclesia Dei communities. The laity there are very good, but they do not seem to think through the issues as clearly as the SSPX does. Cardinal Burke has not thoroughly denounced Amoris Laetitiae as heretical. It is his duty flatly to oppose Amoris Laetitiae as heretical and threaten to go out of communion with Rome if Rome does not retract, just like St. Athanasius did in the 300s. As I understand, Cardinal Burke has only squawked that Amoris Laetitiae is not ‘magisterial’. If that’s all he does, then Francis will destroy the Vatican II sect of the Church by the power to appoint bishops. Cupich and others, etc. I’m beginning to believe that the lion’s share of the laity in the ED communities will put up with _anything_. When will they break with Rome?
Tantum, I don’t want to be banned, but to a certain degree, I can’t help myself. I’ve been on here for a while, and I recently decided to join the SSPX. Please don’t ban me.

LaGallina - June 13, 2016

I’m with Camper on this one. (Though I do attend a Motu Mass because it’s all I’ve got.) We have a pope who is clearly a heretic and has no problem with publicly disagreeing with Church teachings and past popes. It is extremely painful to be a faithful Catholic right now. We have to talk about what it means to have a pope who is a heretic, because it is very, very confusing. But if we want to protect our Catholic Faith we have to defend it. Even if it means defending it from attacks from the man occupying Peter’s seat.

Barbara Hvilivitzky - June 13, 2016

LaGallina, it is not up to Catholic faithful to call Francis a heretic. That job is for a future council called by a future pope.

There is NO confusion. We hang on, live our Faith, teach those who want to listen, pray. All the rest is a waste of energy.

Camper - June 13, 2016

Dear LaGallina,
Try to move at the soonest possibility. It is not good for you to avail yourself of the sacraments from ED priests. I know people need money. Try moving to a red state (or a state that is more red than your current.) I think you said you were from south Texas; try San Antonio or better yet, DFW or Houston.

7. virtuouscitizenship - June 12, 2016

Tim and BaseballMom-many yrs ago I learned I was to be inducted into “the Wordsworthless Society.” At my induction I was informed I was the newest president of the club, and, before I could rejoice in my new position, I was also told that every other member was also the president. Could we change your bylaws so each of us schismaheretics can be president? Imagine the computers outside Bethesda MD and those in the bowels of St Peters whirring as each new president is announced? I guess JB’s new magisterium about mercy being for everyone “in whatever situation” is ambiguous; and for us it applies “not so much.’ Guy McClung, San Antonio TX

Baseballmom - June 12, 2016

Absolutely…. I hereby dub you schismaheretic President for a day…. Or a week…. Or month… Or whatever suits your fancy!

Tim - June 17, 2016

Agreed! I’ve been out of the loop for a while. I’m in Alaska on vacation. Went on a halibut charter today in Homer. Great time! We’re up here for 2 Sundays. One Sunday the Byzantine Divine Liturgy and the other Sunday the SSPX. #NEVERNOVUSORDO!

When statehood was being proposed for Alaska many Texans were upset that they would fall to 2nd biggest state. So a representative from Alaska proposed dividing Alaska in half so that Texas could then be the 3rd largest state!

8. LaGallina - June 13, 2016

Barbara H.
Let’s see, when our own pope has even called himself a heretic, I feel pretty safe just agreeing with him on that. (“I feel like saying something that may sound controversial……….or even heretical, I don’t know… –Pope Francis I)

Be assured, I hang on to the True Catholic Faith for dear life, and I ignore everything the Heretic says. It’s either that, or lose my soul. Sorry, but we are living in extremely dark times with an extremely dark pope. It is time to call a spade a spade — for the sake of Holy Mother Church. Pretending everything’s fine and hoping for a better pope next time around is not going to fix the situation that we are in.

9. Tara Romero Ellison - June 15, 2016

My eyes have been opened..Read Pascendi by Pope St. Pius X. There he lays it all in plain view on how to recognize a “modernist”.
In it he tell us that modernists have 2 conceptions of Jesus Christ 1.(the historical Jesus) 2.(the Jesus of the Catholic Faith) One is divine – the other is not. That’s how Pope Francis can say one thing that is completely orthodox one day and then another day says something heterodox, all with a straight face!
I am glad that Pope Leo XIII saw this coming and gave us the (long) prayer to St. Michael the Archangel for him to watch over the Church.
For a while, the Nihil Obstat and the Imprimatur was also a tool to protect us from the modernist wolves. But now, the sheep are very vulnerable to the wolves smiling at the door. I am beginning to think that we are living in a time not unlike the Protestant Reformation whereas for awhile the “protestants” were in our midst and causing mayhem before they went their separate ways, taking thousands of misguided and INFECTED souls with them.
Don’t become infected, say your rosary daily, asking Jesus for guidance and deliverance from the evil one.

10. c matt - June 15, 2016

As an attorney, I have been in many situations where the law was on my client’s side, yet we had to go through trial with erroneous rulings, appeal with the upper court getting it wrong, and finally to the state supreme court before things were finally determined correctly. This took several years. Just shows the wheels of justice move very slowly.

The Church moves notoriously slower. It could take decades for a future Pope/council/college of cardinals to decide if PF is a heretic. Sure, many of us can already see it, it may even be plain as day, but the duly constituted authority to make that determination (Pope or Council) could take years to getting around to it.

Camper - June 15, 2016

PF has stuffed the ‘Church’ with his corrupt bishops and cardinals. It is permanently ruined and only millions of new converts will enable the Church to regain its former strength.

LaGallina - June 16, 2016

Or a miraculous event. We may not get to live to see it happen, but I think the Church will be miraculously restored — sooner or later. I am deeply troubled, however, with all the lost souls during this difficult time.

Camper - June 17, 2016

Dear LaGallina,
I don’t mean to nag, but I’m serious. It is important that every single soul possible join the SSPX or maybe the sedes. It is important that you move if necessary.

Tim - June 17, 2016

No faithful can “join” the SSPX unless they are a member of its third order.It is a religious society composed of priests, sisters and religious brothers. While finding refuge in SSPX chapels is a wise move it is not an absolute requirement for holiness. Becoming a sed is a dangerous move as it is a dead end as it’s logical end is no visible Church and Christ’s promise that gates of Hell shall not prevail is a lie, which is impossible. The sedevacantists and the Novus Ordites subscribe to the error of papolatry from opposite perspectives.

skeinster - June 17, 2016

First aid:
http://www.sensustraditionis.org/multimedia.html
the section under “Sermons” called “Tradition”. All ten of them. Explains why the sedes are a dead-end street.

[audio src="http://www.romans10seventeen.org/audio-files/20131020-Christ-is-the-Point.mp3" /]
Refocus on what is really important.

http://www.waragainstbeing.com/node/41
best explanation on why the SSPX may not be the solution we seek. Non-polemic and thoughtful.

LaGallina - June 17, 2016

Thanks, Camper. First off, I know that I have my family in the location that God wants us. (Rio Grande Valley of Texas) I let Him know on a regular basis that I will go or stay as He opens/ closes doors. We may not have the SSPX down here. But I am in contact with an SSPX priest from Houston. I received a conditional confirmation (and 3 of my sons were confirmed) by the SSPX in Houston last month. My “madrina” (Godmother/ sponsor) is SSPX and lives down here in the RGV. Her entire family (mother, siblings, children and grandchildren) have been part of the SSPX for many years, though they live far away from a society chapel.

He have a tiny, but growing, group of Catholics whose eyes are being opened to Tradition. I do believe one of my jobs is to be here and to help open more eyes to Truth and Tradition. (Most people down here are Catholic. Most don’t practice, of course, but there at least is a genuine belief in God and an openness to the Catholic Faith by most people.) I have listened to every single argument (almost) from every group of Traditionalists out there. (SSPX, sede, FSSP). And I mean EVERY argument. Everything from Father Gregory Hesse, Sedevacnists, John Salza, FSSP priests, etc. I have my opinions on it all. (I’m not a sedevacantist, thanks to John Salza, but I’m not sure how to deal with that man called “Pope Francis.”)

I hear the 1962 Mass from 3 (sometimes 4) priests. (And of course I would like to hear the pre-1955 Mass, but that was not meant to be just yet.) One priest is totally Vatican II, but his eyes are slowly opening to Tradition. The next is my “pastor” and, although he still says the new Mass, he sends us somewhat shrouded warnings about the heresies coming out of Rome. The 3rd priest is new to Tradition, but very excited about it. And the 4th is a former FSSP priest — and he’s a whole other story! I travel 1/2 hour for one Mass every Friday, and 1 1/2 hours for Sunday Mass. That’s just the way it is, and I’m grateful for what I’ve got.

When it comes to Sedevacantist, I enjoy a lot of the things I’ve heard from them, but I don’t like their mockery towards anyone who is not Trad enough (Michael Davies, SSPX, “Father Retro” as they like to call non-sede Trad priests.) I also don’t like the fact that the sedes attack each other often, and that they have “competing” bishops — bishops who criticize each other’s ordination. (And, of course, their ordinations to bishop were worthy of criticism.) Also, listening to John Salza made me realize that I need to keep my humility about me — so I’m trying!!!

ANYHOO, what I really want is for Traditionalists to support each other. And I do long for a priest who will truly guide me and my family, I accept the suffering of not having one. I also accept (though sometimes i can hardly bear it) the fact that the Church is going through this Passion. I ache deeply for Holy Mother Church. I pray for all of the souls being lost because of this dark time in the Church. And I do pray quite a lot every day, (3 mysteries of the rosary plus lots of other stuff) which I mention ONLY to point out that we can be confused, we can discuss, we can even argue, but we MUST pray every single day as much as possible.

God bless you, Camper, and all of Tantum’s readers. We are all in this together, and I am thankful that we have this little forum where we can “chat” about it. (And as I often end my little spiels, sorry for the novel!)

11. Camper - June 17, 2016

Your argument about sedes does not persuade me. Sedes believe that they are the Church. They do not believe that the Church has disappeared. Based on an Ecclesia Dei sermon, I used to believe about the Sedes like you do, Tim.
I still assert that to be a saint these days, you have to be out of communion with Pope Francis. He is plainly a heretic. If you give money to any of his priests (the FSSP) then you are responsible for serious evil, both out of his mouth and out of the mouths and works of his bishops.

Tim - June 18, 2016

Do you buy food, gasoline, a phone or for that matter anything? If you do you support evil somewhere in some corporate structure. Let’s get real. My spiritual director told me we must contribute what we can to the parish we receive our Sacraments, that is a precept of the Church. He said we are not required to contribute to 2nd collections and that doing so may well be sinful. Your comment about giving $ to the FSSP Is patently absurd.

camper - June 18, 2016

You don’t _have_ to support Rome. There is the SSPX. On the other hand, one has to eat, use the telephone, pay rent, etc.

Tim - June 19, 2016

What if someone does not have access to an SSPX chapel? And don’t tell me to just move, many folks can’t do that. So if someone goes to the FSSP or ICK with no SSPX available are they on the road to damnation? What’s your address? I live here in “Realville”.

camper - June 19, 2016

Learn Austrian Economics and the Theory of the Business (Trade) Cycle in the comfort of your car during your commute:

https://mises.org/library/austrian-theory-trade-cycle-9

Economic collapse is coming. You need to know why precious metals, probably stored abroad, are the only serious way for you to protect yourself and your family from the evil of western governments.

Tim - June 19, 2016

Actually, no one needs to use a phone, people did just fine without them for centuries. Also, you don’t need to pay rent, you could live in a homeless shelter.

12. Every week a new low for Francis | A Blog for Dallas Area Catholics - June 17, 2016

[…] of sacramental marriages are null, and that many cohabitations are “real marriages.”  As he did a week ago, Francis has inverted the truth and elevated falsehood in its […]

13. tg - June 17, 2016

I try not to have any thoughts about PF. I pray for him but I cannot watch him or listen to him. I can’t even watch EWTN or read other Catholic websites that are in denial. I appreciate all the Catholic bloggers like you, Ann Barnhardt, One Peter Five, Mundabor for informing us the truth of what pope says.

Tantumblogo - June 17, 2016

I’m getting there. I’m also getting a bit blogged out. We’ll see where I go, if anywhere.


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